New Find

[mustbebob]

I don't know. It wasn't specified.

[admrose]

I hope you mean this as a joke. There is nothing wrong with what Chuck is saying about this coin. Everything is factual. If you have any time in the hobby, or any expertise in grading, then you would know that. If you can not say anything about what is clearly a missed grade by a top grading company that charges for a service and doesn't get it right, what would you suggest we do? Would you buy this coin as a MS67? If you would, then I have other stuff to sell you.

I was stating that PCGS (or any business) wouldn't appreciate being called out in public about a glaring error that could adversely affect their reputation, especially by their own employees. I know my company has a social media/internet policy and I would assume a company like PCGS would have something similar for their employees.

Basically it boils down to factual or not you don't talk negatively about the people who sign your paycheck. He doesn't work for PCGS; moot point. I was simply responding to another poster's comment.

As for the coin, I clearly said that coin in no way deserves that grade. The scary part is the grading is by consensus, which means not only did someone say that's a 67, but someone else agreed with them.

[liveandievarieties]

The existence of this slab has been clearly explained. I'm sure everyone here who is a qualified and experienced mint state grader can raise very valid points about the grade of the coin. I'm certain PCGS if questioned could easily explain that the coin IS a -67 by their technical standards, they don't "accidentally" give out MS67 grades for extremely valuable high grade modern coins.

In the end, there is a population of very, very few in this grade, there are exponentially more collectors. Even if the coin inside was black it would bring a lot of money (recently witnessed messed up MS67 Steel cent that sold for a over $80).

This coin is a created rarity. A "very low population coin", until demand peters out, then they will open the floodgates and there will be over 500 of them, in this grade within 5 years- mark my words.

It's a game of competitive buying- years ago it was beanie babies selling for thousands of dollars, a low pop high grade coin isn't that hard to believe.

The true admiration goes to the inventor of the industry- the one who figured out how to create a sight-unseen buy market for coins. Literally turning a hobby into an industry. Going on 30 years later, layers of this game are still being revealed, or understood. It's brilliant, but only if you're the one winning the game!

[coppercoins]

they don't "accidentally" give out MS67 grades for extremely valuable high grade modern coins.

They evidently did this time, unless they want to finally admit to favoritism in the grading room.

Even if the coin inside was black it would bring a lot of money (recently witnessed messed up MS67 Steel cent that sold for a over $80).

Which makes NO common sense at all and supports my argument that those who have the money and spend it on labels alone don't know much about the coins the labels supposedly represent.

It's a game of competitive buying- years ago it was beanie babies selling for thousands of dollars, a low pop high grade coin isn't that hard to believe.

So the moral to the story is that competitive buying in collectibles is just plain stupid because most of the things people spend moon money on now turn out to be losses later when the supplier gets greedy and makes more 'valuable' product than the market can bear. Yes, we agree on that.

Literally turning a hobby into an industry.

Yes, and doing a lot of harm to the true numismatic hobby with greed, lack of true knowledge in the populace, and a balloon market that will certainly burst at some point for a majority of the product they have made.

Great points...they pretty much sum up my thoughts. The coins are a mere by-product of the slabs. People are buying grades, not coins...as is evidenced by the mistakes in slabs that still sell for FAR more money than the same coins out of the slabs would bring.

Basically ANYTHING modern and produced in high volume cannot be considered 'rare' with any certainty because more will definitely be made when the supplier has had their fill and decides to flood the market.

Given that, logic dictates that it's just plain crazy to spend hundreds (let alone thousands) of dollars on 'created rarity' coins because of the coin's condition, especially when well over 50% of the hundreds of millions to billions made are still sealed and have never been viewed with human eyes.

I can see a place for PCGS in scarce, older coins with true merit as rarities. We need a professional company to set a standard...but three year old Lincoln cents selling for thousands because of a number on a holder - that's just plain ridiculous.

[coppercoins]

End-game moral....the same one we have been hearing for years. If you want nice coins, learn to grade, learn the series, then BUY THE COIN with complete disregard to the holder in which the coin resides. If the coin itself stands up to the merit of the price tag, have fun, and if the label happens to be right - bonus!

If the label isn't right for the coin - don't get suckered into buying labels as lottery tickets. One of these days the ante will be called and you'll surely lose.

[admrose]

End-game moral....the same one we have been hearing for years. If you want nice coins, learn to grade, learn the series, then BUY THE COIN with complete disregard to the holder in which the coin resides. If the coin itself stands up to the merit of the price tag, have fun, and if the label happens to be right - bonus!

If the label isn't right for the coin - don't get suckered into buying labels as lottery tickets. One of these days the ante will be called and you'll surely lose.

Hear hear. A lesson that I wish all newcomers would learn as many think all the TPG's are interchangeable. There's a far cry from PCGS/NGC/ANACS to the companies that'll slap a 70 on anything shiny.

[liveandievarieties]

Another moral of the story could be that people have the right to collect ANYTHING they want, but you'll do far better if you educate yourself!

There are more coins than not in holders which could be questioned when you apply one of dozens of different grading standards: 1986 PCGS holders are very differently graded from 1994 PCGS holders, as 2010 holders are equally different- the grading standards change- led mostly by PCGS. We can keep up with the leader or talk about how coins used to be graded.

Don't get me wrong- I love dealers who use antiquated grading- I pick up a handful of "AU" early wheats at every show, they always go on to slab between MS61 and MS63.

On the subject of the OP's coin, I will offer a $100 bill to anyone who can get PCGS to admit that the grade on the holder is a mistake. Hell, I'll throw in $500 in die varieties too.

Simply put- it is what it is, everyone can have an opinion, but the industry standard has graded it and right or wrong, it now is what it is- an MS67 that will we worth thousands for the next 18 months or so.


Please don't get me wrong- I'm not defending the slab industry, Chuck makes some very valid points. But coming from a different perspective, I can see the need (most collectors simply won't take the time to educate themselves on the finer points of numismatics). Slabs are simply a game where it is easy for the experienced person to make a boatload of money.

There is no doubt that the slab industry has caused a great deal of degradation of our hobby- but ultimately, isn't it still the collector who has failed to educate himself??

[coppercoins]

It's really not that simple. PCGS isn't the all-seeing, all-knowing "LORD" of grading. They can and do make mistakes. Whether they would admit to that or not isn't something for me to judge, but that they have and do make mistakes is a given. Saying that coin IS an MS67 because PCGS said so is purely ridiculous and VERY narrow minded.

"Dozens of different grading standards" is all a fault of the grading companies who continuously change their own standards. When the grading companies' systems started, it was all by the ANA standards, which were based on Sheldon's 70-point grading system first published in the late-1940s. All grading standards thereafter diverged in their OWN way from the one solid standard - the ANA standard. You want to grade accurately? Learn the ANA grading standard. It is the ONLY grading standard accepted across the industry in this country.

And yes, anyone has the right to collect balls of used toilet paper if they want. But the fact that they collect them does not change the FACT that there markets for certain collectibles and these markets are set with general standards - and I doubt balled up toilet paper has a market no matter how many people offer it for sale, and no matter whether two people get in a bidding war over a ball of toilet paper because it happens to look like a globe.

I'm not going to continue beating a dead horse about what's marketable. You and I both agree that we are on separate planes there.

You can support whatever ideals keep your business running - that's all fine, but I would prefer to stick to realistic ideals as set forth by the millions of buyers and sellers in this market as a whole, and I would prefer to convey those ideals to people wanting to learn this hobby. It does them a lot more good to know what's realistic and true. Everyone who knows the market knows there are well graded coins in holders and there are those coins that are not graded properly, and PCGS is absolutely NO exception to that. This is why there are hundreds and hundreds of examples of PCGS graded coins selling for dirt money in bargain bins at every major coin show, and this is also why people with a good eye for grading can 'pick-off' undergraded and undersold coins in PCGS holders and make good money cracking them out and resubmitting them. The coins - in BOTH cases - are graded wrong, by PCGS.

[Roller]

This tit for tat is way beyond my experience level but one thin is clear; professional grading and encasing has opened the collectors market to perhaps many thousands who invest in coins without knowing much of anything about collecting or the hobby and would not put their money in coins otherwise. That, in the end run, is good for all who collect and actually delve into the hobby.

[coppercoins]

I stand down in so much as to agree with Roller in his statement. Grading services HAVE helped expand the hobby, which is good.

I also stand down on a point I made earlier regarding the statement that "PCGS said it is, so it is." Yes, to many buyers with money, PCGS grading IS the end-game. Sad but true. So for that group of people, and the dealers who sell to that group, true...when PCGS put an MS67 sticker on a coin, that's what it is to them. It is to those who bother to know enough to rub two nickes together about the hobby that can see right through that very thinly veiled smoke screen.

This is where I diverge. I prefer to EDUCATE rather than to let people believe that "PCGS said it, so it's true". PCGS is wrong too - just like me, just like everyone reading this post.

Another place where I will stand down. Grading IS subjective, to a point. Perhaps on the merits of eye appeal versus technical standards, and maybe even on what constitutes the requirements of some of the adjectives that are placed in the grading systems on purpose, such as "superlative". There is, however, an accepted standard among most in the field who have experience looking at the coins, and that standard is where I come off saying that the OP coin in this thread is far from MS67.

For those reading who may not know:

I have held, seen, and examined tens of thousands of 'graded' coins and have a very good handle on where the 'market' is with grading. In fact it is so good that I have been paid to view lots at auctions and make recommendations on pieces to purchase. My eye in grading Lincoln cents is recognized by dozens of professionals in the field. Not to toot my horn, but I wouldn't want anyone who does not know me reading this and asking themselves where this kook comes off disagreeing with PCGS grading...so I offer the information I have.

[Amadauss]

Regardless of whether the big gashes are on the coin or holder...
Regardless of whether you play or care about the slabbing game at all...
Regardless of how scarce MS67 coins are for any issue...
Regardless of whether many more will be available in six months or six years...

a coin like this in a top grade PCGS holder only serves to hurt their reputation because they very clearly missed the actual grade of this coin. I have seen literally hundreds of coins from that issue that are nicer than that coin.

Anyone who likes can pay the moon money for the label to play the registry game, but I can guarantee you if that coin came out of the holder in that exact condition NOT ONE of those same people would give you anything over face value for that coin. Therein lies the problem with the whole mess. MANY of the "top-pop" players in the registry games know VERY LITTLE about how to grade coins, and of course the slabbing companies worship those people as the "true numismatists" of our time because the companies make a butt-load of money off those people. It's all about money, not about numismatics and the love and study of the hobby. Whomever has the most cash can own the highest numbers on labels.

I fail to comprehend much of that part of our hobby because of how it is run.

I think this is what I said, just in different words. Anyone in any business knows that if a customer does a great deal of it with you, they in most cases get the better service and the benefit of the doubt. In this instance either the person doing the final grade made a bad mistake along with the people that also check up on that person which should be very unlikely which then means the coin was originally submitted by a company or person that does a great deal of business with PCGS.

I would disagree with the thought that if the collector is not educated, shame on him for buying the coin. We all know it takes years and years to fully understand this hobby so it is the people that know it the best who should be thinking along the lines of the less educated who want to enjoy the hobby and really count on others for the right info. I would feel bad for the kid who went to his first coin show wanting to pursue this great hobby and purchased this coin not knowing any better.

[liveandievarieties]

It's fun to play devil's advocate sometimes- even if just to encourage strong discourse on an important subject.

You'd be surprised at how much of what you've said I completely agree with Chuck. Offering perspective from the other side brings out more good points from your perspective.

Ultimately- it is unquestionably on the shoulders of the buyer to educate themselves. If you study hard, learn a great deal and invest with that knowledge in mind, you will find that when you liquidate your holdings, you'll do extremely well. If you buy last year's cents in MS67 holders, you'll lose thousands a few years down the road.

Nobody is the ultimate word in numismatics, but I'd listen a lot more to the experienced and educated collector or dealer before someone flipping plastic on eBay.

I admit, I get a fairly unique perspective from my line of work. All that aside, what I buy and keep for myself are choice raw coins, I rarely buy slabs outright. As long as you know what you've got in your hand, the bargain will always be raw.

[coppercoins]

And from my side of the street - I see this hobby as a hobby that requires education to keep up. If you don't have time to self-educate, then you don't have time to be dropping your hard earned cash on coins. I have sunk a great deal of my life into this hobby, and could hardly expect anyone else to do that. But if you're going into battle with both guns drawn tossing money everywhere for valuable stuff - you better know how to use your guns. Don't count on someone else to reload for you.

Just my perspective. The old adage holds true, NO MATTER WHAT. Buy the book, then the coin. Read, read, read...learn, learn, learn. THEN spend money. It will always work out better in the long run.

[josht]

Just my perspective. The old adage holds true, NO MATTER WHAT. Buy the book, then the coin. Read, read, read...learn, learn, learn. THEN spend money. It will always work out better in the long run.

This in mind, what would be "the book" to get in you guys' opinion? I've purchased the CPG, the Red Book, and Ken Potter's, "Strike it Rich...". None of which really go in depth on the critical subject of grading.

[GrumpyEd]

I've read this thread ten times over... and still can't understand what this is all about.

Aren't all brand-new BU coins fresh out from new rolls usually in the MS63-70 range anyway?

Yes and no.

Lets not forget that the highest grade that PCGS has ever given for a bus strike wheat cent is a single coin graded MS69 so all the rest are MS68 and below.

For memorials PCGS only graded one cent MS70 and then it downgraded to MS69 so all are MS69 and below.

I agree with everything said in this thread, playing the top pop game is only for some people.
It's full of risks, overgraded coins and coins turning in holders. If you cracked a lot of top pop coins and sent them raw they might change by a grade and sometimes that one grade changes everything.
Still, it's a real market because there are so few top pop coins and there are people that buy them even though it's not for me.