Question about grading wheats

[riff]

When grading wheats, does year matter? i mean, do you grade, say, a 1912 by the same standards as a '58, a coin 46 years older?

[liveandievarieties]

Yes, standards are the same. But really sharp graders take into account the strike characteristics of the era. For example, you can have a branch mint coin from the 20s that is gem BU but with weak strike without wheat lines. Grading AU/Unc coins gets tricky at that point.

But to answer your question, with the same design (albeit different hubs) the grading standards are the same.

[riff]

Yes, standards are the same. But really sharp graders take into account the strike characteristics of the era. For example, you can have a branch mint coin from the 20s that is gem BU but with weak strike without wheat lines. Grading AU/Unc coins gets tricky at that point.

But to answer your question, with the same design (albeit different hubs) the grading standards are the same.

let me see if i can get this; from what i remember reading, in the 20's, the branch mints would get the 2nd hand, worn equipment from Philly, hence the weak/poor strikes of the era?

[liveandievarieties]

No, I believe it's more a combination of overused hubs and overworked dies. See, the US Government used to try to stretch their (our) dollar. Many of the variations and anomalies we seek (especially overdates and OMMs) were a result of Government thriftiness (sounds like an oxymoron now).

When dies struck coins well past the point at which they should be retired, if the die didn't break the die detail was very eroded leaving uncirculated coins with the detail of a VG. With the absence of luster, grading these coins can be a nightmare. There's no consistency of die detail throughout the population for many years.

[GrumpyEd]

For example, you can have a branch mint coin from the 20s that is gem BU but with weak strike without wheat lines.

For a good example of this look at some auction photos of high grade 1922-P weak reverses.
But note that on those it's mostly from the worn out dies.

[BadThad]

No, I believe it's more a combination of overused hubs and overworked dies. See, the US Government used to try to stretch their (our) dollar. Many of the variations and anomalies we seek (especially overdates and OMMs) were a result of Government thriftiness (sounds like an oxymoron now).

When dies struck coins well past the point at which they should be retired, if the die didn't break the die detail was very eroded leaving uncirculated coins with the detail of a VG. With the absence of luster, grading these coins can be a nightmare. There's no consistency of die detail throughout the population for many years.

Not only that - but as a I recall the branch mints got their dies from Philly...I think they were the working dies too. There was a huge demand for coinage production from the branch mints so they ran the dies to death. And Philly was having problems getting the dies to them - so they ran them until they broke or couldn't make a coin anymore.

[WaterSport]

Hmmm, while cents ( or other denomination) are graded using the same standards to determine a mint state, vs. a circulated grade, the coin will not grade the same. That is to say a weakly struck cent in mint state will never carry enough detail to carry a ms 65 grade. They will be notched down a grade point or two.

WS

[rlm's cents]

Hmmm, while cents ( or other denomination) are graded using the same standards to determine a mint state, vs. a circulated grade, the coin will not grade the same. That is to say a weakly struck cent in mint state will never carry enough detail to carry a ms 65 grade. They will be notched down a grade point or two.

WS

Not necessarily. These 2 both made it;

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=256&lotNo=5908

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=1184&lotNo=4137

[GrumpyEd]

In theory they should ding high grades for weakly struck coins but not so much for weak details from worn dies especially when all of that coin have the weak details. I've seen graded coins where they held them back for something I think they all have and I've seen others where they did not hold them back. It depends on the graders.

I like their description of the obverse:

Such a high-grade example affords an unusual opportunity to examine what a No D, Strong Reverse cent must have looked like when it was new, though with the understandable mellowing of time. The obverse is a mushy mess, the L in LIBERTY pulled to the rim and the portrait underdetailed, the luster of the whole a quicksilver gloss found only on the most put-upon dies. The reverse, of course, is far sharper and has a distinct swirl to the underlying luster.

[liveandievarieties]

This is the point I was making about worn out dies being tricky to grade. Some graders at TPGs think that a coin from eroded dies should never be a high grade. Others adhere to how I understand grading to work: that it is based on what has happened to the coin SINCE it was struck.

Whether circulated (my original reference) or uncirculated, I believe there will always be contention over the proper way to grade these coins. What I do know is that I've had great success buying weakly struck "AU" coins from dealers that end up grading between MS62 and MS64, nearly every time.

In my own view, coins with weak strikes should be graded with that taken into account.

A coin can have VG details on the obverse and have sharp and full wheat lines as well as luster on the reverse. Is it a VG or an AU? Somewhere in between? Technically, it would be an AU coin. Often TPGs will "net grade" such a coin giving it a grade in the VF range.

I'm certain of what I have said, and this is how I learned it. Some years back I was selling a 1922 plain for a friend, trying to find a buyer. His coin was graded VF30 by NGC, but it had full and sharp wheat lines on the reverse, hardly VF on the obverse. When I was at another coin shop, they had a '22 Plain example slabbed too, this one in XF. Their example appeared to be in lower grade than my friends. After examining both, I talked with my friend and we decided to crack the coin out and re-submit it. The coin came back as an XF45 and found a buyer very promptly- for just over twice what my friend was asking when it was in a VF holder. We split the difference in extra money and I learned a lucrative lesson that day.