1922 - D Die pairs #1, #2, #3 & #4

[Justafarmer]

What about die pairs #5, #6, #7, or #8? Coins struck by the obverse dies paired in #1, #2, #3, #4 struck prior to these dies being pulled from service and re-worked and placed back into production?

[onecent1909]

not sure I follow... ??
die 1, 3, and 4 if you follow that there is 4 NO D dies.. are filled with grease or some other mater... these are normal dies... before and after the no D trace...they just had the D filled in with something so that the struck coin does not show the D
Die 2 is a reported die clash that was abraded to remove the clash.. that abrasion also removed the D mint mark and the obverse die was paired with a new reverse yielding a no D obverse with a strong reverse or die 2

there is no die 5 to 8....
There were many, many dies that made 1922 D cents that year. there were 4 dies that have been identified as showing no trace of a D
DIE 1, 2, 3, 4 is for cents that shows no D mint mark.

a die number that we use..example Die 1 or Die 4 or die 100... is the same die from the moment it starts it's first strike to the last strike it ever makes.. That die has the same "number" to us the entire time. It may have markers that change showing us a early die state, or a very late date state. All the dies used at the mint have a serial number, but as collectors we do not know what serial numbered die made this error or that variety.
The first of a type... DDO, DDR, RPM, etc... that is reported to someone gets called die 1.. the next... yep you guessed it die 2..
A variety being reported at different times to different people can result in that one variety being called die 1 by CONECA die 4 by Wexler die 25 by coppercoins and die 7 by someone else.
in this case everyone chose to use the already listed die 1 to 4 for this variety
for 1960 D cents there is a RPM labeled die 100 by most people... however it is also DDO die 1 as it has a ddo and a rpm...it was the first 1960 D DDO reported and it was given RPM die 100
If a 1922 no D coin was found that had markers that was unlike any others.. and could not be matched to the die 1 to 4 dies at any die state and verified by more than 1 person. and reported to a collecting body or expert that list varieties.. it would be called die 5.
But for now.... there is no die 5 to die 8 or higher when talking about 1922 no D cents

[Justafarmer]

It is my understanding that die pairs #1, #2 ,#3 and #4 were created by retuning previously utilized/retired dies back into service. Therefore the obverse dies would have had a different pairing during their original nornal coin production cycle - die pairins #5, #6, #7, #8 so to speak.

[rlm's cents]

There were probably more than 8, but there was nothing peculiar about the rest of the die pairs. Therefore, no reason to isolate them.

[Justafarmer]

More than 8 die pairings for 1922 as a whole or more than 8 die pairings of the obverse dies creating die pairs #1, #2, #3 and #4?

[onecent1909]

SIDE NOTE some believe ( including myself ) that there are only 3 dies that are effected, die 4 is a later die state of die 1 or 3.. I don't remember which one but as the OP started out listing 4 dies I will continue with Die 1 to die 4


There are many dies created for the 1922 D cents..... and only 4 obverse ( if that number is what you believe )dies that created the 1922 no D cents

The only reason we have this variety to talk about is.. there where no Philadelphia cents made in 1922, if there were equal number at Philly and Denver cents produced then this would not be an issue as there would be millions of 1922 no D cents. that being said...

OK for the 1922 no D ( or 1922 plain cent ) die 1, die 2, die 3, and die 4.
All 4 dies are ONLY talking about the obverse die...
Die 1 may have had many reverse dies paired up with it... or it may not have...
BUT when you talk about 1922 no D die 1 you are only discussing the OBVERSE die.
in this case which reverse die was there does not matter.

now you may say that an early die state die 1 is pared with a mid die state reverse die 2.. or not...
BUT the variety is still die 1 no mater what the reverse die is
for the 1972 DDO 4 that is the obverse die... however the reverse die that is paired with that obverse die has been paired with other dies..
this does not make another die for the DDO...
a DIE # is not the pair of reverse and obverse dies it is about the die that the variety is on
If the variety is on an obverse die it is numbered by the obverse die only. the reverse die pairings do not mater except as markers to help ID the variety BUT they can be paired with other reverse dies ... the coins created are still the same die number as that variety is noted by the obverse dies only.

Die 1, die 3, and die 4 all had grease fill in the letter D.
This is why you can find these dies with a full D, a weak D or no D viable.
Die 2 is another story ..
two dies clashed together leaving an impression of the reverse on the obverse, this die was removed and abraded so the clash marks would not show. it got polished so harshly that the D in the die was removed but they did not notice or care and they put the die back into service
The reverse die in this story was so badly damaged that they removed it and canceled it never to be used again.
That obverse die needed a reverse die to make a coin. so they put into effect a new reverse die which as it was new it had very strong details.
this leads to the No D strong details notations

That is why you will see listed
a 1922 D
and a 1922 D weak D ( die 1,3, or 4)
and a 1922 No D or 1922 plain ( die 1,3, or 4 )
and a 1922 No D weak reverse or 1922 plain weak reverse ( die 1,3, or 4 )
and a 1922 no D strong reverse or 1922 plain strong reverse ( die 2 )
and a 1922 no D die 2 strong reverse or 1922 plain die 2 strong reverse
and a 1922 no D die 2 or 1922 plain die 2

The reverse die pairings do not matter with this variety ( except in determining that it is Die 2 )
The Die number is only about the obverse die. no mater what reverse die it was paired with
Or when said die struck the coin. whether a weak D, a no D, or a full D
There is no die 5 to die 8
because 4 different dies created the 1922 plain cents which is what this variety is about.

[WaterSport]

The Philadelphia mint sent to Denver 20 obverse and 27 reverse dies to be used for cent production. Manufacturing began in January and ended late February with the last of the total 7,160,000 cents produced February 26th - February 28th.

WS

[rlm's cents]

More than 8 die pairings for 1922 as a whole or more than 8 die pairings of the obverse dies creating die pairs #1, #2, #3 and #4?

In specific answer to your question, probably both. Cannot prove it for the 4 specified obverse dies, but definitely as a whole.

[GrumpyEd]

Just some opinions

For obv die varieties they get a die # and that die number is based on the obv die not the pairing. For example there are many obv varieties that have a given obv die number that had several different reverse dies used at different times and that is listed in the details about states and stages but the obv die number wouldn't change.

In general I don't think it was good that people used die number for the 1922 plains because they are really die states not die varieties that were created when the dies were made. In the states where the mintmark is normal they aren't considered the same coin/die number. For example, try getting a TPG to put a number like die-1, die-2, die-3, die-4 on a 1922 that still has a strong D. They won't do it but it's the same die.
I always thought they should have called them type-1, type-2, type-3, type-4. But LOL... nobody asked me.

[Justafarmer]

Ed - I guess this is where my confusion about the 1922 weak/No D coins begins. These coins are not a variety – they were created in basically the same manner as the 1937-D Three Legged Buffalo Nickel. Instead of a leg being abraded it was the mintmark. The Weak D/No D #1, #3 and #4 were created from LDS dies which had been removed from production, re-worked by the Mint (at which time the mint mark was abraded), paired with a highly worn reverse die and placed back into service. The No D #2 was removed from service due to sustaining a significant die clash (I am not sure at what die state this clash occurred), it was removed from production, re-worked, paired with a new reverse die and placed back into service.

LCR describes these pseudo-varieties in the following manner.

1. Die Pair #1 No D (Weak Reverse)
2. Die Pair #2 No D (Strong Reverse) Also called 22 plain
3. Die Pair #3 Weak D (Weak Reverse)
4. Die Pair #3 No D (Weak Reverse)
5. Die Pair #4 Weak D (Weak Reverse)
6. Die Pair #4 No D (Weak Reverse)

I have always assumed that these coins were referenced as "Die Pair" (#1, #2, #3 & #4) as opposed to just "Die" (#1, #2, #3 & #4) was intentional

Dies (#1, #3 & #4) should have stages where they produced coinage exhibiting a Normal/ Strong D more than likely paired with a different reverse die that produced a normal/strong reverse. Coinage produced during the span these dies were originally placed into production.

Die #2 should have stages where it 1^st produced coinage exhibiting a Normal/strong D paired with a different reverse die that produced a normal/strong reverse. There should also be a stage for this die pairing where it produced coinage exhibiting a major die clash.

[onecent1909]

Charles,
die 1, die 3, and die 4 were not polished off ... the D was not removed... the d was filled with a grease like substance.... the grease was there.. fell out and filled back in... they were not polished or reworked.. they are paired with a reverse die..
the weak D coins can be listed as weak D die 1
the TPG do not list these like this.... but some collectors will list them in this way...
1, 3, and 4 could only have 1 reverse die....

[Justafarmer]

I always thought the weak Ds were weak due to abrasion and these weak Ds would systematically end up exhibiting the No D characteristic due to build up of grease. Th grease would build up making the D less pronouced until disappearing - then fallout and build up again.

[rlm's cents]

Charles,
die 1, die 3, and die 4 were not polished off ... the D was not removed... the d was filled with a grease like substance.... the grease was there.. fell out and filled back in... they were not polished or reworked.. they are paired with a reverse die..
the weak D coins can be listed as weak D die 1
the TPG do not list these like this.... but some collectors will list them in this way...
1, 3, and 4 could only have 1 reverse die....

That scenario would imply to me that there would be a moderate to strong "D" from die pair #1 (or #3 or #4). That is something I have never seen nor heard of although I have not studied nor searched to find one either. And LRC says;
"Die Pairs #1, #3 and #4 are all classified as “Weak D’s” regardless of the strength of the mintmark. " I have always read that literally - they are all "weak D's".

[GrumpyEd]

Another issue is that all the TPGs didn't list them the same and some of them changed what they listed over time.

I don't remember where I read it but supposedly in the past (maybe before TPGs), people thought only the weak reverse was legit and that the strong reverses were ones that people removed the mintmarks from.

Then there was a time where some TPGs would only list the strong rev and not list any weak reverse as a 1922 plain.
People said that the strong rev was the only true "no D" that never had a trace of a D and the weak rev value dropped.

Then they started also listing the weak reverses as plain but they all had different rules like that it must show no D up to a certain magnification.
Then they started listed them as 4 dies.

I remember seeing old ANACs slabs labeled die-5 "Broken D".

[Justafarmer]

I appreciate the help in clearing this up but sorry to say I’m still confused. Hope I am not annoying anyone by pushing this discussion further. Let me concentrate on 1922 No D Die #2 and maybe get it cleared up.

This is my general understanding for 1922 No D Die #2

Stage A
Obverse Die State EDS – ???
Produced a normal mintmark
Reverse Die State ??? - ???
Produced a normal strong reverse

Stage B
Obverse Die State ??? – Die State ???
Produced a normal mintmark
Exhibits die clash somewhere on the obverse
Die pulled from production
Die re-worked with clash and mintmark abraded from die
Reverse Die State ??? - ???
Produced a normal strong reverse
Exhibits a major die clash somewhere on the reverse
Die pulled from production
Die retired from service

Stage C
Obverse Die State ??? (Re-worked) – Die State ???
Exhibits no mintmark (abraded off when re-worked)
Exhibits no clash (abraded off when re-worked)
Paired with a different reverse die
Reverse Die State ??? - ???
Produced a normal strong reverse