Overlay experts - seeking your help - I keep getting an error

[Justafarmer]

Wow, that is super cool. Could the variations in the numerals of 19 be just due to alignment and rendering errors, or do you think there is actual differences? It appears a new punch was created almost every year for the second "1" and of course a new/different punch for the last digit.

Really nice study, will be good to hear all the comments from folks more knowledgeable than I regarding the die making process early in the 20th.

I suspect some deviation can be attributed to shadowing artifacts on the base images used for each individual coinage year rendering. Causing me to establish coordinates slightly out of place thus creating a small rendering error. But most of the differences you see is attributed to engraving performed on hubs and dies from one year to the next. All having a common two digit master in their lineage and 1910 to 1916 also having a common 3 digit master in their lineage. Now if you would like to contribute some of your multi-stacked images for each year to the study - I would not object.

[jfines69]

That's cool... I wonder if the differences could be related to repunching or reengraving of a worn die??? That may account for the minor deviations??? I do know there were reengraved/retouched dies in the 30s, 40, 50s and I believe 1974!!!

[ray_parkhurst]

I suspect some deviation can be attributed to shadowing artifacts on the base images used for each individual coinage year rendering. Causing me to establish coordinates slightly out of place thus creating a small rendering error. But most of the differences you see is attributed to engraving performed on hubs and dies from one year to the next. All having a common two digit master in their lineage and 1910 to 1916 also having a common 3 digit master in their lineage. Now if you would like to contribute some of your multi-stacked images for each year to the study - I would not object.

I'd love to contribute but I don't have suitable coins to image. My collecting interest is primarily 1934-1958. I dabble a bit in both early Lincolns and in Memorials and Shields, but I certainly don't have a BU date/mint set of Teens to work with.

[Justafarmer]

For those that are interested - here is where I stand now. I studied my first set of overlays (1909 through 1916). I tweaked the "19" coordinates and adjusted my parameters based off the 1914 Cad Rendering. This was the rendering whose "19" best represented the median. I then proceeded and created virtual obverses for all years 1909 through 1929. The following images show my results.

1. 1909 through 1919 complete obverse CAD overlay
2. 1909 through 1919 date extracted CAD overlay
3. 1919 through 1929 complete obverse CAD overlay
4. 1919 through 1929 date extracted Cad overlay
5. 1909 through 1929 complete obverse CAD overlay
6. 1909 through 1929 date extracted CAD overlay

[Petespockets55]

For those that are interested - here is where I stand now. I studied my first set of overlays (1909 through 1916). I tweaked the "19" coordinates and adjusted my parameters based off the 1914 Cad Rendering. This was the rendering whose "19" best represented the median. I then proceeded and created virtual obverses for all years 1909 through 1929. The following images show my results.

1. 1909 through 1919 complete obverse CAD overlay
2. 1909 through 1919 date extracted CAD overlay
3. 1919 through 1929 complete obverse CAD overlay
4. 1919 through 1929 date extracted Cad overlay
5. 1909 through 1929 complete obverse CAD overlay
6. 1909 through 1929 date extracted CAD overlay

I like it. Thanks because it looks like you have invested quite a bit of time into this.
Wonder what happened in 1929 to give two locations of the last 9?

[Justafarmer]

I like it. Thanks because it looks like you have invested quite a bit of time into this.
Wonder what happened in 1929 to give two locations of the last 9?

The two "9"s is one from 1919 and the other from 1929 as the overlay is 1919 through 1929. Each year of a decade has a specific color code - those years ending in "9" are coded in grey.

[jfines69]

The last 2 digits are really all over the place... Easy to tell they were put on the dies at different times... When you do the overlays are you aligning just the dates or the entire obv??? I know that when I do overlays, using pics, for RPMs I get much better results if I have at least 3 points of reference... I will use the rim, edge of jacket, MM and as much of the date as possible!!!

[Justafarmer]

The last 2 digits are really all over the place... Easy to tell they were put on the dies at different times... When you do the overlays are you aligning just the dates or the entire obv??? I know that when I do overlays, using pics, for RPMs I get much better results if I have at least 3 points of reference... I will use the rim, edge of jacket, MM and as much of the date as possible!!!

I am using "LIBERTY" and "IGWT". You will also see two circles around each overlay. These are static in relation to "LIBERTY" and "IGWT". Being each rendering is scaleable - all overlays are scaled to a standardized circumference.

[Petespockets55]

For those that are interested - here is where I stand now. I studied my first set of overlays (1909 through 1916). I tweaked the "19" coordinates and adjusted my parameters based off the 1914 Cad Rendering. This was the rendering whose "19" best represented the median. I then proceeded and created virtual obverses for all years 1909 through 1929. The following images show my results.

1. 1909 through 1919 complete obverse CAD overlay
2. 1909 through 1919 date extracted CAD overlay
3. 1919 through 1929 complete obverse CAD overlay
4. 1919 through 1929 date extracted Cad overlay
5. 1909 through 1929 complete obverse CAD overlay
6. 1909 through 1929 date extracted CAD overlay

Excellent post and information.
Is it just me or does the first 9 of some of the dates (1914 & 1915) appear to resemble the Small Date Lincolns of the 1960's and 1970's?
What I mean is the end of the upper loop of the 9 looks to be pointing to the other numbers of the date as opposed to pointing in a SE downward trajectory (mint mark area).

I went back and looked at your post #7- (Links are included for easy reference)

Image 4 is " Group 1 1910 match Date Only.JPG "

Image 5 is " Group 2 1912 match Date Only.JPG "

If these two are actually different from the rest would this possibly indicate the dies were modified for 1914 & 1915 or that the 1915 was produced from the 1914 Master Hub before the last numeral was applied?

Edit:
Each years Master Hub is produced from the Galvano, Correct?
Is there the possibility of slight deviation in the design transfer?

[jfines69]

Excellent post and information.
Is it just me or does the first 9 of some of the dates (1914 & 1915) appear to resemble the Small Date Lincolns of the 1960's and 1970's?
What I mean is the end of the upper loop of the 9 looks to be pointing to the other numbers of the date as opposed to pointing in a SE downward trajectory (mint mark area).

I went back and looked at your post #7- (Links are included for easy reference)

Image 4 is " Group 1 1910 match Date Only.JPG "

Image 5 is " Group 2 1912 match Date Only.JPG "

If these two are actually different from the rest would this possibly indicate the dies were modified for 1914 & 1915 or that the 1915 was produced from the 1914 Master Hub before the last numeral was applied?

Edit:
Each years Master Hub is produced from the Galvano, Correct?
Is there the possibility of slight deviation in the design transfer?

Good catch Cliff... I did not notice that before... I think your first question is yes but I'm not 100% sure... Always a possibility in a deviation of design transfers do to equipment wear or mint workers experience in setting up the machines that coupled with a weekend of party time and all kinds of things can go haywire