Questions about die flow lines

[VAB2013]

If I had bought this coin based on it's looks, and then put it under the microscope, I would be disappointed at it's apparent die state. I'm guessing late to very late die state.

In hand you can see the beginning of a ridge ring on the obverse, but really the coin looks great. Until you look up close.

I can see heavy die flow lines at the edges of the coin in different areas, not all the way around. But what fascinates me is how these die flow lines swirl around in different spots. Is die wear naturally uneven (like an unbalanced tire?)

Would this coin still be considered MS with this much die wear?

Really looking forward to Bob's educational exercise coming up on die wear, die state and stages!

Edit: That MM looks odd doesn't it??

[GrumpyEd]

Would this coin still be considered MS with this much die wear?

It is MS, die wear should have no effect, MS is "mint state" of the coin not anything to do with the die state or die wear.


My opinion is that things from not great strikes on Lincolns like flatness in the hair or on the shoulder might start to matter in higher grades maybe 65 and up, things from die state shouldn't matter at all but I think they might on ultra high grades like it might matter if the graders were looking at a coin that sort of had a shot at being a top pop (like wheats where a top pop is a 67-68) coin it might effect their decision but for most coins in any grade die state really shouldn't matter, like I said it's the coin being in the state it was as struck not the wear of the die that struck it.

Go look at that recent post about the 43 copper, it's graded MS but look at the reverse. To me it looks like a horrible strike. I know you are asking about die state not strike but I think strike matters more (it matters some) for grading than die state (it pretty much doesn't matter). The reason I say look at that 43 is the point that they're grading it MS because it's in about the mint state it was when it came off the press, missing tons of detail on the reverse didn't make it not MS.

For example, most grading books for wheats mention how much of the wheat lines must show for a grade. But on a coin like a 22 plain it may have had no lines when struck, good graders should not hold it back because of that. The cases where it will hold a coin back is when that coin has a bunch more wear and the missing stuff from a poor strike sort of gets lumped in with the wear it's heading for the AG grades sooner than it should.

[VAB2013]

Really good info Ed! See... I didn't realize that MS had nothing to do with die wear, thank you! Where my mind was going is, if I had bought this coin MS and then saw the late die state I would have been disappointed. The ultimate find is early die state, and EDS is more valuable... correct? So say this is not a variety (although it would have been an awesome 92D CLAM regardless of die state) You see MS coins for sale all of the time, but I've never seen die state mentioned. If I had my pick between an EDS MS and LDS MS, I would want the EDS MS.

well... the rest of my question is about die flow lines... they are cool looking and I don't really understand them, but I wouldn't want to buy them

[GrumpyEd]

The only time I see die state on slabs is a few discovery coins I sent to James Wiles and he sent them to ANACs for me with his letter and they put his attribution and die state from his letter.

Other than that I never saw a TPG put a die state on a holder.

The PCGS/NGC "early strike" labels have nothing to do with die wear, it's only based on submitting within an early time period from the coins release date. The coin can be an LDS and get an "early strike" label.

Your 92-D looks like a MS65 red from the pic. Give or take a grade.

You might be right that an EDS should be worth more but price guides only go by grade and only variety people or a select few high grade collector people might care about it.

[VAB2013]

More good information Ed! Congrats on your Discoveries... I knew you had some 2006P's and probably some others too. It would be nice to know what they were!

Also, I never understood "early strike" so thank you for explaining that! Another thing I don't understand is when people say a coin is "strong strike", does that just mean that more details are showing, probably no grease or gunk on the die and it was just a good day at the mint? If so... then strong strike could be any die state also? I wonder if some of these terms are unintentionally misleading or it's just because I don't understand them?

...can you guys envision how cool a round table meeting with Ed, Jim, Bob, Maineman and our other leaders here would be?!

[mustbebob]

That's a pretty good indication of how die flow lines affect things on a coin. Your question is a good one, and Ed answered it correctly.

I am making some good progress on my next lesson on die wear. Don't know for sure when I will post it but it should be pretty soon.

[jfines69]

I have considered the die flow lines to be spalling... After all they are caused by high velocity impacts just like a bullet hitting armor plating https://drmorgear.files.wordpress.co.../spalltest.jpg Over time the die flow lines will build up and get heavier almost as if the lines have become a river bed for particles to travel down if that makes cents

[BadThad]

I have considered the die flow lines to be spalling... After all they are caused by high velocity impacts just like a bullet hitting armor plating https://drmorgear.files.wordpress.co.../spalltest.jpg Over time the die flow lines will build up and get heavier almost as if the lines have become a river bed for particles to travel down if that makes cents

I've always called it "staring" because the flow lines radiate out toward the rim. I like the term spalling, more accurate.

[VAB2013]

I've always called it "staring" because the flow lines radiate out toward the rim. I like the term spalling, more accurate.

Very nice to see you BadThad! I had to look up "spalling"

is flakes of a material that are broken off a larger solid body and can be produced by a variety of mechanisms, including as a result of projectile impact

I agree... spalling! WTG Jim!

[VAB2013]

That's a pretty good indication of how die flow lines affect things on a coin. Your question is a good one, and Ed answered it correctly.

I am making some good progress on my next lesson on die wear. Don't know for sure when I will post it but it should be pretty soon.

Thank you very much Bob! We are looking forward to getting started on your next learning experience on die wear! One of those things that confuses us with doubled dies sometimes! It's going to be great information!!!

[ray_parkhurst]

Die wear and resulting flow lines are a very interesting topic. Will be good to read Bob's analysis.

I've studied the die wear and die states on Lincoln Wheat Cents as part of my collecting interest, especially as it relates to die stages of the varieties I collect. I also do a fair amount of roll searching, and put aside any VEDS coins I find. One thing that is not well accepted (I wrote about it in another forum and was rebuked by a few ignorants) is that die wear and luster are closely related. I have seen this in various stage studies, ie that early stages/states (especially VEDS) coins show very little of the traditional luster that folks get excited about. Indeed a brand new die, with no wear, will produce relatively low-luster coins. There is still some luster present, but it is more like what you would see on a satin proof. This more subdued luster is due to the movement of metal in the planchet as it is struck by the dies, and it has a small grain size, so the luster has a "sheen" to it rather than a "cartwheel" that is present later in the life of the die. I highly prize these VEDS coins. Ironically, the TPGs do not feel the same way, since the "booming" luster that is so important to achieving a high grade by definition cannot be present since it is a product of the flow lines in a worn die impressed on the coin's surface. I don't think I've ever seen a VEDS coin in MS67 or higher, and rarely in MS66.

[VAB2013]

Thank you very much Ray for posting this because I was wondering how a coin that appeared a later die state could exhibit so much luster "it was the cartwheel luster that I saw on this particular coin that captured my attention in the first place". That is very interesting to note and I know you have photographed many different die states and stages of coins and have seen this first hand many times! Great info! Yes, we are all looking forward to Bob's posts regarding this topic, there will be so much good information to learn!!