1951 Lincoln Cent- Re-engraved vs Normal Bangs

[jallengomez]

So, Ray has a bunch of BU wheat rolls. I asked him to look through some 51D. He had the same experience that you did, Cliff. Most had the engraving. It was clearly done on a die by die basis. We could definitely see some variance on the examples from different dies, but it was quite interesting how much they were the same. It surely appears it was done by a single person with this exact purpose in mind. One specimen in particular had the engraving line farther up into the hair, but the others were almost identically done. I haven't decided if it is worth doing a write-up yet, but this is a pretty cool discovery by Cliff. Maybe it can be part of a larger article. I'll have to think on it, but first I need to finish the Mint mark article and make a bunch of updates for Mike on the error-ref site.

Throw the 1972 working hubs with the goofy beard engravings in the article too.

[willbrooks]

Throw the 1972 working hubs with the goofy beard engravings in the article too.

Awesome, thanks! I was trying to think of all of them and had forgotten that. Any more you can think of?

[ray_parkhurst]

Hmm, not so fast on that '72...

Those beard marks look incuse, so they must have been done at working hub level, unlike the '51 coins. I think we're talking about the same article perhaps, but with a different perspective.

[willbrooks]

Hmm, not so fast on that '72...

Those beard marks look incuse, so they must have been done at working hub level, unlike the '51 coins. I think we're talking about the same article perhaps, but with a different perspective.

I was just looking at that too. The shadows are reversed from the raised devices.

[jallengomez]

Hmm, not so fast on that '72...

Those beard marks look incuse, so they must have been done at working hub level, unlike the '51 coins. I think we're talking about the same article perhaps, but with a different perspective.

Yeah, it's definitely a working hub anomaly as the marks are incuse.

[willbrooks]

Design elements were engraved, re-engraved, and enhanced all along the road from master hub/die to working hub/die. I know Mike D has covered some of this already in his monthly columns. However, our little group here is always finding new stuff on Lincoln cents. I will have to delve into the already-published stuff, and the new stuff you guys keep discovering. there may be other "retouching" work like Jody and Cliff have presented that hasn't been announced yet. Please add instances that you know about, because I would like to be as comprehensive as possible and obviously don't know all of them. This is why I have been critical in the past of the cpg listings for those proof "re-engraved vest" dies. While I suppose them being proof dies makes them special in a way, instances of re-engraving/retouching are numerous and not very special. I feel that there is a commonality here that will connect them into a coherent and logistically consistent article.

[ray_parkhurst]

In my early work with 3D I shot the re-engraving that surrounds the bust on a couple different dates. The Steel cents are most interesting IMO. I was able to show the path of the engraving tool around the bust on a working hub. It is cool to see where the tool hit, where it went too far, etc.

[willbrooks]

In my early work with 3D I shot the re-engraving that surrounds the bust on a couple different dates. The Steel cents are most interesting IMO. I was able to show the path of the engraving tool around the bust on a working hub. It is cool to see where the tool hit, where it went too far, etc.

Awesome. That would make a good inclusion. Let's see about putting it all together. By the way, I finally got the package off to you today for the class 9 study. Thanks, bud!

[Petespockets55]

Thanks Jim, WS Bob, Jody, Ray and of course Will for adding to this thread and my knowledge.
Looking forward to the article when it gets completed because it kind of makes sense the mint might have done this on a regular basis during this time period.
(Wonder if there were economic issues nationwide during this time period, making the mint economize by lengthening the life of the dies?)

[jfines69]

Didn't the 74 have a reengraved bowtie???

[ray_parkhurst]

In a thread over on CU forum, we've been arguing about the 42P high relief Pattern Cent, and recently one of the members posted pics of recutting done on the Pattern as well as other similar coins. I initially though this was working hub level recutting that I talk about above, as I have seen on 1943 Steelies. But I looked again and realized the recutting was in relief on the coins in question, while if the recutting was done at hub level, it would be incuse. This means that the recutting was most likely done somehow at die level (!!), which seems problematic, but the evidence is there. Take a look here:

https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1023831/extremely-cool-1942-high-relief-lincoln-cent-certified-sp65-judd-2081#latest

[Petespockets55]

Ray, is it conceivable the pattern was struck from the master die as a means to save time and $? If so, could this possibly account for the difference in relief and rim thickness?

[ray_parkhurst]

Ray, is it conceivable the pattern was struck from the master die as a means to save time and $? If so, could this possibly account for the difference in relief and rim thickness?

I had not thought of that but perhaps it could be true. I do see small design differences though...

[Petespockets55]

1942 would have been the time period for testing new alloys for the steel cents and the mint may have been trying different device details to see how they may have affected the minting process.
Would they have put the pattern dies into the general production or just a few coins may have escaped? "Waste not want not!" especially during WWII. Special times require special circumstances.
(I imagine the mint ran tests again in 1980-81 when getting ready to switch to zinc. When the full run started in 1983 they ran into all kinds of issues with the dies and planchetts.)

[jfines69]

Could the high relief be from a reworked proof die??? There was a link to an article of a proof struck on aluminum and it is high relief!!!