1959 P odd deterioration leading to large 19?

[makecents]

I have delved into my aggravation can! The thing that first got my attention on this coin was the very large 19, similar to the DDO-001 but I know that it is not that and not even a DDO. The only thing I can think of, is the odd deterioration, lending a hand in the enlarged numbers. The deterioration puts me in mind of the 71's we have discussed on here before, different but similar. LINK (http://www.lincolncentforum.com/foru...=deterioration)

Thanks for looking.

Jon.

[Petespockets55]

As best I can tell, I would agree with you Jon.

[makecents]

As best I can tell, I would agree with you Jon.

Thanks for checking it out Cliff!! Deterioration was all I could think of. What's odd, is I have a 61P that has the thick 19 also and I found it at almost the same time, I'll post it tomorrow.

[mustbebob]

I have to chuckle at stuff like this. We know it CAN'T be a large or small 19. The dies aren't made like that. So now we get into the cause and this is where we learn stuff. This very much reminds me of myself many decades ago when I questioned the same sort of things.

[makecents]

I have to chuckle at stuff like this. We know it CAN'T be a large or small 19. The dies aren't made like that. So now we get into the cause and this is where we learn stuff. This very much reminds me of myself many decades ago when I questioned the same sort of things.

Well Bob, anything I have done, that puts you in mind of something you did, even if it was when you were in third grade, I'll take it! So I hate to be ignorant of the meaning of your statement but is the enlargement of the 19 from a worn out die, as I deduced?

[mustbebob]

but is the enlargement of the 19 from a worn out die, as I deduced?

The meaning of my statement was that the dies are not made like that (with a couple of letters/numbers purposely made larger than the others), and we know that. There are a few things that could cause this sort of anomaly, and sometimes it would be hard to figure out which one. There is die deterioration, there is die wear, there is abrading of the die, there is old clashes or other damage that has worn smooth, there is striking errors, and there is purposeful alterations.

There are more things about how you learn about this hobby that you and I can share similar stories about. I was only 12 years old when I started some 50 something years ago, and we definitely didn't have some of the resources we have now. It took a much longer time to learn. It certainly doesn't hurt to have a mentor and an open mind. I was very fortunate to have many good people help me along. I am only hoping to continue that so that our current collectors can pay it forward.

[makecents]

The meaning of my statement was that the dies are not made like that (with a couple of letters/numbers purposely made larger than the others), and we know that. There are a few things that could cause this sort of anomaly, and sometimes it would be hard to figure out which one. There is die deterioration, there is die wear, there is abrading of the die, there is old clashes or other damage that has worn smooth, there is striking errors, and there is purposeful alterations.

There are more things about how you learn about this hobby that you and I can share similar stories about. I was only 12 years old when I started some 50 something years ago, and we definitely didn't have some of the resources we have now. It took a much longer time to learn. It certainly doesn't hurt to have a mentor and an open mind. I was very fortunate to have many good people help me along. I am only hoping to continue that so that our current collectors can pay it forward.

Bob, I don't even really know where to start. I need you to know that I have the upmost respect for you and have always enjoyed and appreciated any input you have given me, whether it was what I wanted to hear or not, I always want the truth. You have been an unbelievable source of knowledge and experience, that I have never taken for granted. I knew, early on, you were one of the GOOD ones! I have never been good at reading between the lines, I'm actually horrible at it but I'm excellent at reading people, one of my few God given talents. I have tried to understand how you and others like you worked the hobby with the resources you were given at the time and it's simple, good people, just like you, no need for the internet, just good old fashioned work, with something you found you enjoyed and loved doing. Any help you would ever want to offer me, is always accepted, in the most humble of ways and will always be appreciated, more than I could ever reciprocate. Thank you, Bob.

[jfines69]

Nice pics... Die wear looks like a good call to me... Maybe even a slightly tilted obv die also???

[makecents]

Nice pics... Die wear looks like a good call to me... Maybe even a slightly tilted obv die also???

Thanks Jim!! Still picking it apart but you may have a point with the tilted die.

[jfines69]

Thanks Jim!! Still picking it apart but you may have a point with the tilted die.

What are you picking apart on it???

[makecents]

What are you picking apart on it???

Just how the devises, rim and field, were affected. I'm sure there were different things happening at the same time on this coin that led to the outcome. Some die related and some strike related. Just trying to educate myself a little.

[jfines69]

Just how the devises, rim and field, were affected. I'm sure there were different things happening at the same time on this coin that led to the outcome. Some die related and some strike related. Just trying to educate myself a little.

If you don't mind I will down load your full obv and rev pics and put some pointers on what I see??? Why I think there is a tilted obv die that helps with what we see!!!

[makecents]

If you don't mind I will down load your full obv and rev pics and put some pointers on what I see??? Why I think there is a tilted obv die that helps with what we see!!!

Sure Jim. Let me know if you want any other pics.

[jfines69]

Sure Jim. Let me know if you want any other pics.

Cool... Thanks... If I need anything else I will let you know!!!

[jfines69]

Jon,
Sorry for the delay on getting this done but here goes with what I see on your coin -

In a tilted die situation the dynamics of the strike will change in proportion to the degree of tilt... The clearance of the die faces changes being closer at one edge and farther apart (180 degrees) on the other side... In its semi-fluid state the metal will flow more easily toward the larger gap instead of evenly when the dies are properly aligned...




I did an obv pic with some pointers to show what I see... There is die/circ wear along with what appears to be a slightly tilted obv die??? The west half of the coin looks normal for die and circ wear other than a chamfered section (yellow arrow) on the rims inside edge which should be the dies edge due to the tilt... The east half is a little different... The green arrows point to the ends of separation that appears to indicate the rim did not form completely due to a lack of metal to fill the larger gap... The black arrow points to the thickest area of the malformed rim and appears to be directly across from the chamfered section... The blue arrows show the general direction of extra metal flow due to the tilted die... On TRUST the normal die wear metal flow begins on the 1st T and shows about the same on the R... The amount of extra metal flow increases CW thru the UST with the last T showing the most as the metal attempts to fill the larger than normal gap... The malformed rim is slightly thicker there compared to the rest of TRUST... Since the area between the last T and the date has no devices the extra metal flow doesn't show much, except for some flow lines until the date, (pic is a little out of focus to tell how much) ...


The date is strongest at the 1, which is normal looking for die wear... The first 9 has a some what normal section on the upper west (red arrow) but looses metal to extra flow toward the rim on the east side... The 5 appears to have lost more than the first 9 but not as much as the last 9... The last 9 appears to have lost the most metal toward the rim... The last 9 also appears to be suffering from some metal displacement from a hit...

The edge Abes face appears strange as if parts are attempting to flow toward the rim but I am not sure due to the distance from the rim???


Not much going on with the rev... The white arrows point to some metal flow... I think that is related to the tilted obv die as is the extra thickness of the east rim??? The rest of the rev looks to be normal for die and circ wear...


I also included a side by side pic with the rev flipped as if looking down on the die...


Maybe some of the pros will chime in and correct any incorrect assumptions on my part???

Thanks for letting me anal eyes your coin