Let's talk about 1927 DDO FS-101

[DCW]

Hey gang,
With a lot of new picture posts with members asking for advice on the 1927 Doubled Die Obverse, I thought I'd post a clear picture of one that is in my collection and in uncirculated condition. This is the plate coin from Wexler's website www.doubleddie.com.

PCGS MS64RB:

Notice the strong doubling to the southeast of liberty, especially on the "LIBE":


"IN GOD WE" also has nice separation to the east:


Finally, the date. On this variety you will see the "27" bubble up to the northeast:


It is extremely hard to see this variety in grades below XF. The spread is close, and with circulation the doubling more or less disappears. This can happen in VLDS as well. In fact, I bought one from teletrade years ago in 64RD. I was excited, as it's a scarce variety and I had been looking for one for ages. Well, it arrived and I couldn't see any separation lines at all! NONE! Was it the variety? Perhaps. It was certified by ANACS in one of their small white olders as being so. But, when you can't even see the doubling because the die state is so advanced, what is the point of paying a premium for it? Even though it was slabbed and certified with a lofty grade, I returned it and eventually found the nice example pictured above.

Hope this helps someone in the hunt for one of their own,
Dennis

[Speedy]

Your talking about the die state, and saying that older states are worth saving, is the way I take that. The 1947 DDO is kinda the same way and same with the 1942-S, and to add about the 1942-S no early die state has been posted in a book that shows the self line of heights in TRUST.
Take the 1949-S rpm1 1cent a very very nice 2nd S for early die state, weaker for stage B.
I agree with you that die states mean everything in showing off a variety. Usually why newer die states bring in more money.

I don't see any notching on the 1925-S, but it seems to be easier to pick out with less of a trained eye, then it takes for the 1927.
I still say what holds the 1927 back from attribution from the so called pro's for the TPG companies is they just do or don't have the trained eye for that variety. The description kinda sucks not because of the attributors, but because there are a few different die states and all the die states have not been fully attributed. As I have yet to find a 1927 that matches with the description markers, and those markers in the description only talk about die scratches which fade and go and come back in later die states. They also read as if you are to hold the letter that the description is talking about, holding the letter in the upright position, but the description reads as holding the coin in an upright position.

Show me a 1927 that matches the description holding the coin in an upright position as stated in the description on Conneca.

And the problem with the coin you sent back, is that person paid for an attribution. The coin did not get fully attributed. It should say a die state and the date the year the coin was slabed. TPG companies are to scared in posting something wrong. And we all know that in time some variety die state will be changed around, why I say put a date. There is really no reason for them to be scared they are suppose to be the experts. The books for attribution talk about die states, why was yours not listed with a die state? Don't seem like that person got their money's worth for attribution fee they paid. Yep that's it DDO here ya go, sorry I am an expert but we don't put what die state it is. Lol
Also we put plastic around our coins to hold for ever, but we do not conserve the coin, if you didn't conserve it your self, then the copper coin in time where any dirt is still on the coin will turn green and pit the coin doing damage to it. Should that TPG company be held liable for the damage? I paid good money for the coin to be holdered for all it's life, and not to be pitted years later or have a nasty finger print pop out on the coin 5 years from now. Are they truly doing the coins justice?

[GrumpyEd]

Very nice example Dennis!

It's a nice variety if you get one like yours in high grade that's not a later die state but those are few and far between!

[coppercoins]

Might as well...I cherrypicked this one at the Sarasota, FL coin show in February...

[Speedy]

Copper coins that is a very nice example. Very nice. And truly shows what I am saying about the description. That is the very first set of die scratches i have seen that run NE to SW thru the date. Let me ask you if that was a circulated coin do you think it would have gotten attributed from an untrained eye. I mean Conneca description says that die scratches run thru the date NW to SE. Your fine example runs the opposite way. Thank you very much for sharing.

Is it just me or has any one else notice the bottom of LIBERTY the I B and E, the bottom of the left side of letters do not look double they look tripled.

[GrumpyEd]

Speedy, are you looking at the woodgrain pattern on the coin?

The pattern going NE to SW looks like the woodgrain of the planchet, not die scratches. It goes over the top surfaces of the details like the date.

The die scratches/polishing lines go NW to SE from the 9 heading SE toward the rim. The die scratches/polishing lines don't go over the top surfaces of details like the date because the date is recessed into the die so when polished the lines go up to the detail then start on the other side of it but don't show on the raised areas like the date.

[Speedy]

Ah, I see what your saying. Yes I was looking at the wood grain flow. Your correct it is on top of the letters and die scratches really would not be there.
The die scratches look like most other Unc coins for the DDO. But I don't see how they call it NW to SE, that is saying a 45 degree angle of die scratches. That is really only true for the 1 and part of 9 closest to the 1, that the die scratches rune on a 45 degree, then rest of dies scratches run 3:45 to 9:45 for the rest of the date. 20 degrees is a huge difference then 45 degrees, and more so for an untrained eye having to attribute something they have never attributed.

To say as I have before,PLEASE SHOW ME 1927 DDO THAT MATCHES CONNECA DESCRIPTION OF THE DIE SCRATCHES HOLDING THE COIN IN AN UPRIGHT POSITION.

I have yet to see a coin that matches the die scratches as written.

I am really starting to wonder if maybe we are not dealing with 2 different double dies, like the 1956-D rpm8 that got confused with rpm15?
Could we be dealing with 2 different die varieties, like a double die and a triple die?

As there seems to be like 2 different D's in the word GOD.

1 D seems to be flat going accross for the bottom of the D.
Another seems to drupe down in the center and back up to where the bar is up and down in the D.

Some pics look like a triple die for the I, B and E in LIBERTY, while others look like only a double.

Idk just something I have observed.

[willbrooks]

As there seems to be like 2 different D's in the word GOD.

1 D seems to be flat going accross for the bottom of the D.
Another seems to drupe down in the center and back up to where the bar is up and down in the D.

Some pics look like a triple die for the I, B and E in LIBERTY, while others look like only a double.

Idk just something I have observed.

I just want to chime in here on a couple of things. Let's be careful about what we are associating with the attributes of this doubled die. From the (not so many) examples of this date I have studied, I believe the notch in the side of the B is a normal design element, maybe a master die anomaly. You can still see the notch on the B on Ryan's normal example in this thread: http://lincolncentresource.net/forum...704#post256704 I think that notch is there whether it is the doubled die or not. Also, in case you are seeing this on your D in God, that is also normal and appears on virtually all wheat cents. Just to clarify, I agree the OP's coin in this thread is the DDO, but I want to clarify that these 2 items are not pick-up-points to identify it.

[Speedy]

I just took and googled "1927 double die licoln" and found a PCGS 2 coins an AU and a VF. Both of the D are different. The VF bottom of D goes from west to east smoothly. The AU coin goes west to east, after the vertical bar of the D the bottom of the D drops down and then works it's way back up.
Both are still showing a thin section for the accross bar as the same thickness. Letters do not change in their demensions while holding the same thickness, it's impossible.

Only way I can picture a dropping D is from the master die, like maybe some thing like a hand punch got in the center of the D and it pushed that center bottom of D to drop down, or maybe there was I working die that had a hard spot or something in the metal when a master die came to strike the working die.
But if that's the case then we are talking about 2 different working dies. If a working die had the flat D and got re struck from a master die then the D would be thick accross the bottom.
Both D's shown thru PCGS are a different D. One D drops while the other goes smoothly accross, yet both hold the same thickness going accross the bottom of the D.

Here is a pic of some different D in the word god that I can find. I truly can not picture a working die, picturing a D change form and holding the same thickness. But I can see the form of the D changing on the master die thru it's life.


So how can we have both D's for the same working die?

The pics of the D came from 1927 working dies of P,D and S

[liveandievarieties]

Have you considered that the rim erodes away with extended use? The die goes from having a thick, broad rim to having a very thin one, the difference in space in the field is what I believe you are seeing.

[Speedy]

No sir, I am looking at the bottom of the D in the word GOD. To describe each D in words, one D the bottom outside goes smoothly accross from west to east. The other D starting from the bottom left of D, travels east smoothly for the thickness of the vertical bar of the D, then it drops downward untill center of the D and then works it's way back up.
Now both D's pictured in PCGS of the AU and the VF special show a flat bottom D and what I calling a droopy bottom D. Those parts of the D are the furthest away from the rim.
I can not picture the D changing on the working die and at the same time holding the same thin look going accross. That would be impossible, because then that means you would have to have magically added metal in the center of the D on a working die. That's not going to happen.
What does make sense for the D to change form is from the Master Die that makes the working dies. If you can visualize the working die going thru the hits. Then we know after each hit it is sent back to be anealed, to soften the metal back up as from each strike the surface of the working die becomes a harder metal. Now if cooled improperly are heated to fast the center of each of the letters would be like a nipple or tit extruding upward. This nipple could easily be a harder surface then the rest of the die, causing the D to slowly change form into the droopy D. The parts closest to the rim would not change as much, because they are closer to the rim and the metal can give there more easily. But as for the part of the letter furthest from the rim, the softer metal would be the outside surface of the letter on the working die. In this case, the bottom of the letter would be softer steal on the working die, allowing the D from the master die to slowly change form. That's if the nipple was harder, the nipple on the working die is the center section of the D or letter.
Ok time for me to breath. Lol

The is look at the center of the D. Each of these remind me of the 1857 flying eagle and the 1857 flying eagle with the 1856 motto.
One D has a bigger opening and the other D is not as bid of an opening. Similar to the O in the word OF for the 1857 motto on the flying eagle.
I just can not come up with something logical for the working die to only have the D change form. What does make sense is different D's from the master die. As the master die would still hold the same thickness going accross the bottom of the D, a working die changing form would become thicker going accross, and a working die letters do not open and change as demattiac as the pics on PCGS site.

[Speedy]

I think by Seperating the flat bottom and droopy D of this variety you will find that you can now attribute a die state for each of the 2 varieties.
There is no way that the D in a working die can change form to the droopy D.

The droopy D is from a later die state of the master die.

The flat bottom D is from an earlier die state of the master die.

So there is no way we can have the same die variety with a droopy D and a flat bottom D, both being the same die variety. It's not possible, and it way out there in simple logic.

What I present here is simple logic, and one would think that if it is a master die having the droopy D, then we should also be able to find some class 2 or class 3 dies that show a flat bottom D over a droopy D. I think my pic from searching yesterday shows a thick droopy D, which would support this opinion. I found some thick D's across the bottom of the D.

[DCW]

Flat bottom d, droopy d, thick droopy d...my head hurts! I think you may be over thinking here, Speedy.
In short, if you have a well worn '27 that you believe to be FS-101, try and use the "B" in Liberty as your pick up point. If you can't see the doubling there, throw the coin in a well and make a wish.

[Speedy]

I thought we were talking about the 1927 ddo1.

There are 2 different D in the word GOD shown in PCGS.

Both of these D's are comin and can be distinguished between the 2.

Now using are gifted imagination how can a D change form to the droopy D on a working die? A reassessed letter in the working die will not change to that form and still hold a thin normal look, not in a working die.

It can only change form holding the thin look from the master die. Which means this is 2 different dies varieties. I thought we were talking about the 1927 DDO? This variety has been hard for most to attribute, and even in today's time we still have not been able to make a die state order of things,

Comin now use your imagination, HOW CAN THE D IN THE WORKING DIE CHANGE FORM AND NOT BECOME THICKER?

Simple logic says the change is from the master die. I have been a machinist for over 20 years as a tool and die maker. For the ad to change in the working die, goes against many working theories, keeping it simple logic says the master die is what changed.

The droopy D and the flat bottom D is what separates the 2 die varieties. Any one here ever done tool and die. We are talking about a form die, and they don't stretch like that, the working die would crack before ever stretching to become a droopy D.

[GrumpyEd]

FS-101 is the Cherry Pickers Guide number for the 1927 DDO-001.

If they polish a die then the detail becomes thinner and takes on the shape of the highest part of it. So it's possible for a letter to change shape and not become thicker.

No idea if that applies to the D of GOD here, just throwing out an explanation to think about