Real sweetie 1909 VDB ddr-005 ??????

[bigrig52]

See what you think but it looks like a DDR-005 1909-VDB..It has most of the markers from coppercoins that i can see..

date.jpglines.jpgUnited.jpg 09fr.jpg 09bk.jpg

[mrmike916]

The E sure looks notched. I'm not sure what the concensus of this die is yet. The description says that portions may be master die doubling. I've seen it in hand myself, but never pursued searching for more because I thought they were no more than master die doubling. Looks like a nice VDB anway!

[jmangham]

These 1909 doubled dies are coming up out of the wood work lately!

[mustbebob]

I am thinking this is the master die doubling.

[jallengomez]

I agree with Bob. You can find photos of the 1909 reduction doubling on Will's excellent reference thread from a few days ago.

http://www.lincolncentforum.com/forum/showthread.php?35245-The-NON-hub-doubling-reference-thread

[bigrig52]

So the value as shown on this link is not true or should i say that's its not the same coin

http://www.coppercoins.com/lincoln/diestate.php?date=1909&die_id=1909p1dr005&die_state=mds

[jallengomez]

I'm reevaluating this.

[willbrooks]

I'm reevaluating this.

Yeah, this is a tough diagnosis. Although there is reduction lathe doubling, there may also possibly be master die doubling, and maybe even actual hub doubling. (Which may be why Bob hasn't ruled anything out entirely on the coppercoins entries?) The notches on the bottom of the E and D look different than the reduction lathe doubling. I feel that there may be multiple forms of doubling present on some of these coins we see, which obfuscates matters when trying to attribute. I have not had the opportunity to examine enough 1909 cents to form a definitive opinion myself on each pick-up point.

[jallengomez]

Bigrig-

If you read in the description of the listing at Coppercoins it states, "Subsequent evaluation and discussion shows that portions of the doubling may in fact be master die doubling or reduction lathe doubling." I agree with this. After examining three of my unc 1909 cents, I see this doubling to various extents on all three. The analysis includes both VDB and non-VDB cents. As also stated in the description on Coppercoins, what you are seeing on the tail of the 9 is master die doubling so that is not an exclusive marker. After examining my unc examples, I've also noted that all three of them show the heavy die scratches at the base of the bust. I believe these to be lathe marks or some other tooling marks. Again, this is consistent on both VDB examples and non-VDB examples that I own.

[bigrig52]

I just want to know if this is a 1909P-1DR-005

[Maineman750]

I just want to know if this is a 1909P-1DR-005

As Bob stated, he now thinks it is MDD. Sometimes the listings may change if better die states are found or other experts notice something...instead of removing the listing, they just update the info to note their new evaluation.

[jallengomez]

I personally do not believe there is an '09P-1DR-005. I think it's a combination of lathe reduction and master die doubling. The only way to confirm that your coin is from the same die as the one listed on Coppercoins would be if the markers shown around the "N" of CENT matched exactly. The other markers shown are not exclusive.

[mustbebob]

I apologize for not keeping up with you folks on this thread. 1DR-005 as noted on coppercoins may be removed some time, but not until I get a chance to compare it to another specimen. I made the notes in the item description based on evidence that Master Die doubling existed for 1909 after the fact. At the time that die was listed, I didn't know that. As most of you know, Master Die doubling will appear different based on the strength of the hubbing and other factors. I can not arbitrarily remove this listing until I know for sure, but as noted, it is possible it will be. What I need to find is another specimen with the die scratches through the N of CENT. That will assure I have the proper die for comparison purposes.

[Magers]

Here is a shot of my example... I hope this helps.
EDIT: my example doesn't have the scratches through the "N". It has a few scratches there but not an exact match.

[kloccwork419]

I still have that coin that is listed. Anytime its needed to compare just shoot me a pm Bob. Its encapsulated at MS64 now but I do still have it.