Coin dealer confirmed not PMD

[Guest]

Hi.

long story short on this.

found a strange date coin and took it to my coin dealer.
he doesn’t really do money from the USA, but he has experience with coin.

showed him the coin and said I was told it was a PMD and I didn’t know what that was.

he took to it magnifying glasses, 3 of them and he showed me and said that this is not PMD but he understands why it’s thought to be that.
their are some slight scratches and small dings on it.

he said that the curve on the nine could not have been made that way by force with out it presenting a lot more signs of damage directly around it.
as there is no damage directly on the date to cause this abnormal date on the coin, with out the stress fractures. It would have to be done in the die itself.

Now ive has this coin in my collection since 1970, it’s actually only spent 1 year of it’s life in the USA.

he said that isnall the information he would be able to give me on this coin since it’s not something that they did there.

so I thought I would present it here and seek your answers on this stranger thing.


thanks for any more info you can shed light with.

regards


Josh.

[GrumpyEd]

I agree with whoever said it was damaged.

The die is incuse, things can get filled in but not moved like that.
If a section of die cracks and moves you would see the crack and a raised section. Even then the shape would not change.
If something happens to a die then other examples should probably be seen. If a die has a dent or gouge, that makes a raised area on the coins made from it, it doesn't move things. If it was damaged on the hub then there should be multiple dies like that and many examples of coins and would be known.

I do see the one thing that might trick him is that you can't see a mark where the 9s curve was before the post strike damage. I think it just turned not showing that way by the way it was hit exactly where the raised digit meets the field level. The dealer sort of said he does not see a skid going into it and in his mind proclaimed it not damage but I think that's wrong.

It looks like whatever hit the 9 also hit the base of the 1 and maybe even hit the rim at the lower right corner of the bust.

The reason we do not say PMD is many coins get damaged at the mint, it's damage just the same, what matters is if the damage is post strike damage PSD or not. Meaning, if it got damaged in the mint after strike it's the same as damaged outside the mint in a gumball machine.

Many people say "a dealer told me" but reality is, most dealers sell coins and specialize in something but very few dealers are experts on errors or varieties. You will find more expertise about errors and varieties on most coin forums than from dealers/shops. Odds are that if folks on another forum said it's damage, they are more likely to be an expert on errors than an average dealer. When people tell me "a dealer said" I always say "go back and sell it to him".

Anyway, don't take my opinion on it as your answer, see what the others here think. Maybe if lucky one of the true error experts like Mike D will see the thread and give their opinion. LOL, with all things if the true experts (the guys that wrote the books and are renown experts) have a say I pretty much believe them regardless of my own reasoning.

[Petespockets55]

First, let me welcome you to the forum MrJosh and thank you for the images.

You just received a reply from a modest expert in us coins. He has decades of experience with all kinds of US coins and we rely on his expertise and careful approach to help us with our questions.

Without clear closeups there is no way to see this as anything but PMD. The mint did not produce dies with a 9 like that on any denomination and for the die to have been damaged it would look different.

[jallengomez]

Coin dealers rarely know about errors and varieties. It's just not their specialty or how they make their money. At the monthly show I go to, I routinely have dealers who save coins to ask me about them, and these are dealers who have been doing it for decades. For general coin dealers, error coins and varieties just aren't their bread and butter, so they don't invest the countless hours and hours studying them that would be required to have a firm grasp. This coin is damaged.

[GrumpyEd]

We aren't bashing dealers, it's that they are good at coins in general. Error and variety coins are a niche.
We might be a few percent of the market or less, no shop could thrive if they focused on errors/varieties enough to be good with it. That's why most of the error/variety people are more likely to be online sellers (so they reach the minority of collectors that care) or simply doing it for the fun of it.
I have never walked into a coin shop and found an expert in them, much more likely I walk in and tell them that their common stuff like 70 small dates and 60 small dates are really large dates and cherry pick a few decent varieties from their "normal" coins.

[Mrjosh]

Thank you guys.

im honoured to have the wealth of knowledge answer my question.
Its really cool that I can get this info from the other side of the world from me.

i will attempt to get a better photo of this that is really close up of the 9.
the dealer said that dings on the coin may lees to the confusion.

he also said that he isn’t an experienced person with coins from the USA.
as you have pointed out, they are dealers and they are out to make money, this is a guy who offered me the weight of silver value for a coin worth about $50 to $200.

the best advice he gave me was to seek advice from people that had an experience with coins from the USA.

I’ll see what I can do with getting super close to the 9.

once again, I’m very thankful for your info.

guess I had that exciting moment of finding something I’ve never seen before.
if it was a strange error I would have loved to hold it as a pride of my little collection.
But still, it’s a cool coin regardless and I guess like many of us, it’s a bit dinged up and it’s still worth something to someone.

[willbrooks]

Welcome to the forum. I will echo what the others have said. The 9 suffered a hit moving the metal. There is simply no other possibility. This is common and we see it all the time. Copper is soft and easily moved and damaged.

[mustbebob]

In my opinion, the dealer did everything he could to NOT make a determination in this coin. Not being experienced with US coins doesn't matter too much as most coins are made the same way. Some coins are made in one mint for other countries as well.

One of the main things we teach our folks is to learn the die making process as well as the striking process. If you know those processes well enough, you can pretty much figure out how things happen. The unknown part comes after the coin is struck. There are numerous things that can happen by machines and humans that lead to a myriad of 'weird' anomalies.

I can tell you right now that your coin is damaged. There is no way that anomaly was hubbed or struck like that. The upper curve of the 9 digit was hit, and the metal was pushed or scraped to the east. There may or may not be any accompanying damage as your dealer said. Unless you were personally there, and know specifically how it was damaged, then everything is a guess...not only on your part, but to the dealer and everyone else, including us in the forum. We will give you our best guess based on similar things we have seen, and we have seen a lot of damage such as yours coin displays.

However...in spite of all that, if you like this coin, for whatever reason, then it is collectible and you should enjoy it. That is the most important part. If you are into it to try and make a few bucks, then you will probably be disappointed. Your attitude is great and we are honored here as well that you chose us to answer your question. Whatever you do, never become discouraged because something is not what you wanted or expected. There are plenty of things out there that you could find that will make you pretty happy. You just got to find them.

[jfines69]

Welcome to the LCF... The pros beat me to it... I am guessing that by your conversations here you are not in the US??? That is awesome... Glad to have you here!!!

[enamel7]

Welcome aboard! As the others have said, the 9 took a hit.

[Mrjosh]

Thank you..

yea from Australia. I don’t think he did much to help me. I’m not inclined to deal with him much again.

[mustbebob]

I don’t think he did much to help me. I’m not inclined to deal with him much again.

He may not have helped much this time, but then again, this obviously isn't his expertise. Dealers buy and sell, but not a lot of them are actually collectors of errors or varieties. Usually, at least around here, some dealers will search out the pros or experts to help them properly identify their coins before they sell them. However, their lack of knowledge can make if very profitable for collectors to get some nice varieties pretty inexpensively. I have picked out quite a few really nice varieties from dealer stock.

[GrumpyEd]

I don’t think he did much to help me. I’m not inclined to deal with him much again.

My favorite dealers are the ones that have little interest in cents and almost laugh if I ask about cent rolls. I love it if they say I've got a box of that cheap junk taking up space and nobody wants it because my customers are buying and selling bullion and proof sets for their kids birthdays. Perfect opportunity to buy a bunch of dusty rolls of cents for a few dollars each from dates that might have something good

[jfines69]

Thank you..

yea from Australia. I don’t think he did much to help me. I’m not inclined to deal with him much again.

Awesome... We had another member here a couple of years back from Australia... If memory serves me correct he was doing some research on American coins???