Is etching counter fitting?

[Guest]

New form of counter fitting a double die. I thinks so. It's a machining process called etching. To keep it simple, it's like taking a piece of steal and covering the area you want to keep. Then it gets put into an acid, the acid only eats away at the exposed metal, not eating away at the ink. With several processes you can create one of a kind shapes. I think this process is widely used in the making of the WWE belts. I seen this coin on eBay listed as the 1916 double die. The ribbon is not thick enough to be the double die. Etching is the only process I can come up with for some to create this look on a coin. Just wanted to share another method of machining and ways of altering a coin so as the more we know the better we are.

[willbrooks]

I'll give you this, you definitely think outside the box.

Even if someone were able to control an acid dip enough to mimic a doubled die, which I'm not sure is even possible, why would they!!?? You are left with a worthless damaged coin that nobody who knows anything about coins would ever want! Even if you could fool someone that it is a variety, it is so badly damaged nobody would want it anyway, or else only for a small fraction of the premium as a hole filler. It wouldn't be worth the time or effort to try. This coin was damaged by acid. It was NOT purposefully damaged by acid in order to attempt to counterfeit a variety.

[Speedy]

My only guess to that as why would be money and to say they can.
Acid treated double dies I see seem to average $400 on this variety. There have been books written about $3 gold counter fit where as they made the die and stuck a gold planchet, because the coin is worth more then it's gold value. These books show the die markers of the known counter fit dies.
I think etching is one of the newest processes of machine. So far as history has proven with every new method of machining, so has a new form of counter fit has come about.

Yes, I do think outside the box. one thing about me is I say things that are so wrong, but yet so right at the same time. Thanks

[jfines69]

Etching has been around for 30 years at least... In aircraft maintenance etching would be used to manufacture some parts... Cheaper than machine... There are some known counterfeit coins from china that were made using a sand mold... It also looks similar to your pic but those were used on the high value coins... Hope that helps!!!

[jallengomez]

I think you're confusing the terms on this. This is not etching, but rather a coin that had the date restored with acid. It's not counterfeiting at all; it's simply a method of revealing what was already there. You can restore these dates in several ways with acidic substances, and there is even a specific product called "Nic-A-Date" which is sold for that purpose. When done, yes the coin is damaged, but ANACS(and maybe NGC) will still attribute them and slab them. The value is greatly diminished because of the details grade, but they can still command premiums from collectors looking for a cheap(er) example to fill their collection.

[GrumpyEd]

Very commonly done to restore dates on buff nickels because so many have the dates worn off.

The reason they do the doubled dies is that even without a date they can tell it's the variety by the doubling in other areas like the feathers but the date is gone so they acid treat it to bring back the date.

Same thing police do to restore serial numbers that were filed off of guns.
Also it's the same reason that you can still see details under a peeled lamination, the design is in the metal beneath even though the surface is gone.

[Speedy]

That is not an acid date restored as the 1916/1916. This coin is a regular 1916 buffalo. If it were the double die then how do we start, ok like this, when you write the number 6, most people start by the top, going up then to the bottom and make the circle. Where they started let's use that as a reference point.
Now as for the 1916/1916 true double die if you look at a pic, and it's is not a pic of one. You will notice the extreme extra thick ribbon to the right of the date. Now on the 2nd 6 of the true double die, the reference point I stated as the beginning of the 6, if you move strate east to the right side of the ribbon, a curve will start there on the true double die. This coin and all other regular 1916 buffalo, start on the main level of the beginning of the 6 the curve of the right side of ribbon will start at that level.
I see a couple of you think this is just an acid date coin, yes it's acid all right, but not a restored date.
Good thing I posted this, if you ever thought of buying an acid date coin, you may want to turely check the thick features of the coin out, as etching can only remove metal so far and not add metal, as would be needed for this coin.

[enamel7]

"Doubled" die.

[Speedy]

What I do fear is the guy that did this coin getting smarter, by adding metal to the coin from using a labor to weld powdered metal on the coin. And then going thru the etching process. Yes the coin would still be corroded, but wouldn't it be that way in some cases when digging for metals out of the ground?

[Speedy]

Not a double die. Again get a real pic of the double die. Look at the right side of the ribbon to the right of the date. On the double die the beginning of the 2nd 6 go strate east to the right side of the ribbon, the curve will start on the double die.
This coin I sent pic of starts at the same level of the main 6.

NOT THE DOUBLE DID

[admrose]

There is more than one reference point for the 16/16 DDO Buffalo; the date isn't even necessary in most cases. Counterfeiting one is completely impossible; you'd need to get every reference point exactly right and a regular 1916 Buffalo doesn't have them. Plus if you have a dateless 16/16 DDO only an idiot would restore the date. As with the 1913 Type 1's you just don't need the date to see what you have.

[onecent1909]

speedy ... Can you put up a link on the coin... or a full pic... ????

[Speedy]

Lazor welding is now being held within an inside tolorence of 0.015 of an inch. Not sure about the etching of the tolorence they can hold. Probably depends on how fast and thin they can put the ink on from the CNC machine. And then for how long it is dipped in the acid. Take a look at the WWE title belts, they have some very nice details. Etching was the process for the WWE belts in wrestling. One would thing you can hold millionths for a tolorence as to how much is being removed when using etching, but as far as the displacement of the ink what it can hold in tolorence I am unsure of, I think last I heard was 0.020 of an inch as fars as how wide you can hold the side walls of something. But that was over 10 years ago. I am sure they are holding a much better tolorence today as we do get smarter in time. And as we get smarter so does the forgeries.

[onecent1909]

your pic...a true ddo... your pic with white lines....

IF you are saying that the top of the first 6 touches the ribbon...to me... it does not

My white lines don't look quite right with a true ddo... but I can't draw...

[Speedy]

Here is pic of the coin. It was sold on eBay within the last 2 weeks. Did not see how much it went for, I think it was like $34. Don't hold me to that though. I did search for it this morning before posting and could not find it in the completed items on eBay.

I compared pics of a real DDO posted online, and notice that on the double die, the starting point of the 2nd 6, moving strate east to the right side of the ribbon is where the curve starts for the double die. As for all other regular coins the curve starts at the same level as the main starting point of the main 1st 6, or highest raised 6. Also note how thick the ribbon is on the real double die. The coin picture is not nearly thick enough.