PCGS and their tier level money grabbers

[Bri]

This topic on PCGS/NGC has been weighing on my mind for some time now. Any and all comments are appreciated.

When submitting coins to PCGS/NGC for high grade (excluding errors and varieties) and it comes time to decide on which tier level to submit your coins, I always am a bit reluctant to choose the tier I truly believe a particular coin will fall into. Reason being, is I have been burned a couple times when submitting a coin I thought was going to make MS-67 and ended up grading at MS-66 with a sizeable price guide difference between the two grades. Some particular examples came back and I researched the grading criteria of each grade again and seen very little to no difference between MY MS-66 example and the MS-67 example on PCGS Coin Facts Grading guide. With this being said, I am now thinking that possibly they could be silently solicitating "reconsideration" revenues. Why wouldn't they? They are a NASDAQ traded corporation on the New York Stock Exchange and have a financial responsibility to their shareholders to create revenue to increase the value of their stock. THIS right here is what raises my red flags when submitting coins to this company. If I choose the "CORRECT" (or what I BELIEVE is to be the correct grading tier) and I am wrong and fall short, that is $30-$60 I am losing on one coin. If I multiply this error by 10 coins, I am out $300.00 to $600.00.
NOW my question to you is this: Should I set my sights low and submit coins at the tier level BELOW where I believe it is to be? PCGS Claims to grade up to the next tier level and charge the customer accordingly in the event the coin grades higher. Has anybody ever been upgraded to the next tier level up from where your coins were submitted? I have not had this happen to me yet. I have been right on the money for the most part with a few major disappointments that made me re-assess my grading skills.
If you have been upgraded on your PCGS or NGC submissions to the next tier level, I would love to hear from you. I feel that I am being foolish for submitting them at a higher tier level because many times, for different reasons, they do not get graded that higher grade especially when the details are sitting on the fence and could go either way.
Thanks for any and all input.

Afterthought: I attended a coin show here in Franklin Tennessee about 2 years ago and PCGS was there giving a lecture on grading. The founder of PCGS was there and his collegue who used to be a grader there told this story about someone who submitted a coin and was one grade off from going MS-66 or a half grade from going MS-65+ (I can't remember the exact details) on a low-mintage key date coin. (can't remember what coin it was but there was a grandiose sizeable difference in the value between the two grades). He stated that the guy resubmitted the coin 24 different times for "reconsideration" and paid all the fees and on the 25th time, he got the upgrade to the desired grade. He also stated that it was well worth his time, patience and efforts to do so because it WAS such a sizeable difference. My red flags went up immediately because that is alot of revenue for the corporation and they knew it too! They seemed proud of their stalling tactics to earn that extra revenue as well. Makes me extremely suspicious of their business practices.

After Afterthought: I find it curious that PCGS will readily charge you extra money to upgrade your coin to the next tier level but deny you a refund on the difference if you submitted your coin at a higher tier level than what it actually graded at. They should refund you on the difference if the grading tier schematic was not designed to be a money grabber.

[makecents]

Bri, that's a LOT of info you threw out there and you obviously know WAY more than I do about grading! It's a business, like any other and they want to make money. Not sure how reputable any of them are, because I do not deal with them on any regular basis, very little at all, actually. I have sent in one coin, a Morgan silver dollar, to NGC, years ago, and came back "altered". It was an AU 1884 S but did not look right to me, after the fact.... I had intentions of reselling but was not comfortable with the coin as it was, so that was why I sent it in. Got back what I expected and am smarter for that transaction.

There are those who do what you do and will chime in shortly. Hope you get some help from folks that know more than me about this.

[Maineman750]

Bri, you've summed up what a lot of us have been saying for years

[TPring]

Bri, you've summed up what a lot of us have been saying for years

Yep, grading is very subjective. I think we've all seen the coins that leave "you scratching your head" on how it made [or didn't make] the grade. Personally, I prefer a coin not entombed in plastic, but I can see where it can be useful. I am always dubious of them because I would imagine that the mass submitters get better grades [or the benefit of the doubt] over the average person.

Sorry, don't have an answer to your question. Hopefully WaterSport [Bob] will have some more in-depth information as he is quite familiar with the grading companies.

On a side note, I thought I heard/read that now the companies are (or will be) keeping photo records of coins so the companies will keep track of [and possibly limit] resubmissions.

[eaxtellcoin]

Bri,
I deal alot of stuff I buy at coin shows. Rarely send anything in because the variety doesn't make up the $$ for a $22 dollar slab to PCGS. What I will say is I ALWAYS send the coin in as the value I PAID for the coin. That is all the postal service will give you back if you can PROVE what you paid for the coin. They - PCGS - Up tier's anything they value over $300 retail, Remember I'm talking varieties that are $300 or less so normally they don't even bother with my stuff. It's only usually on a few coins so I just pay the markup.

I did send them a 1909-S VDB in MS with a light tone I bought 15- 20 years ago. Because I valued the coin at $300 - what I paid back then, they returned the coin as ""Questionable Color"" so it is a double edged sword.

[Bri]

Yes it is alot of information all at once. lol However, I needed to be succinct in making all the points that were weighing on my mind about this subject. I am currently in the game of getting the high graded coins slabbed to sell on Great Collections, Heritage etc... for the fat cats who spend tons of money upgrading and filling in their registry sets. Have not sold any varieties at these venues, just straight up high graded examples. I have had some successes but the negative experiences seem to outweigh the positive sometimes. It is frustrating for the little guy like me in a sea of whales. lol

[Bri]

Bri, you've summed up what a lot of us have been saying for years

Is there a welcoming party for the late bloomers? lol

[Bri]

" I am always dubious of them because I would imagine that the mass submitters get better grades [or the benefit of the doubt] over the average person."


Yes I have thought abou this angle of their business practices also. It is a shame that the little guy can't catch a break in the grading game.

[Bri]

I don't send too many varieties or errors to any 3rd party grading service unless I feel like it is on the fence of grading to a higher level to get that extra monetary push. I mainly deal with high grade contemporary coins that I can auction at Heritage or Great Collections etc...where fat cat collectors are buying for their registry sets. I go through alot of uncirculated sets and rolls in the process.

It's a shame about your 1909-S VDB being graded as "Questionable Color". I would break it out of the holder and resubmit it and see what happens. To heck with their PCGS population statistics when it is questionable whether their analysis of the patina is correct or not. Give it a shot I say.

[WaterSport]

Ok, let me try to digest this a bit. First you say “tier”. I am assuming your talking grading level of service as in “express”, “regular” or “economy”? As you should be aware at this time any one of those 3 levels are taking 2-4 times longer to get coins graded – no matter what your sending in. I am suffering thru economy and my last submission took 5+ months. To me, this is a far bigger concern and far more real than what you believe is a company policy to short grade small collectors like us for a scheme that we would resubmit those coins for reconsideration. Now big-time dealers play the crack out game all the time and your story of 25 submissions is an old one. When I heard it, I felt it proved consistency in grading and it sent a message to the group I was with as to don’t waste your money resubmitting. I don’t have a problem with grading as much as I do when I get a variety coin sent back and not attributed. But back to your concerns.

As mentioned – grading is subjective and not an exact science. There will be plenty of mistakes made. But I really do not think a company like PCGS or NGC conspires to screw us over. They are getting way too much business and are making plenty of money. The graders do not know who submitted the coins, they have 3 seconds to grade a coin, and each coin is looked at by 3 different graders. If the grade is consistent the majority grade prevails and a finalizer makes a final determination. I have scratched my head plenty of times also. If what your worried about is values then you might want to find another hobby. I get it that a coin will bring more cash if its graded higher but on the modern side I feel folks are wasting time and money getting a 2022 cent to be a MS 69 let alone paying huge sums to buy it. Let’s be real, there are plenty of rolls still to be searched for perfect 2022 specimens that can command big prices now only to have them crash when 5 more get graded a few years from now. But collect what you like and how you like but remember the old coin collecting proverb…Ownership adds one grade.

Bob