1911 "too small" - variety? error? nuthin'?

[CCC]

huh?...ill have to try that. It doesnt do anything to the finish does it?. I know home remedy is to use ketchup on copper pans but I used it on a coin and it take the natural color right out.

If you use a Stainless Steel Collender it will turn the coins a black color. Make sure it's Ceramic coated. I would do a test on coins your not interested in for a trial run. Then of course there is what Joe suggested, Goo Gone. I use both methods.

[CCC]

Never even crossed my mind even when I used to Metal Detect. Good Idea David!

I didn't know that either when I Metal Detected either. I would soak them in mineral oil. I don't MD anymore since the kids broke my readout off the pole again. I guess I will have to use the old fashion way of fixing something. Duct Tape

[1sgret]

I hear you. You know it shows up everywhere and on anything!!!!!!!(LOL)

[CCC]

I hear you. You know it shows up everywhere and on anything!!!!!!!(LOL)

LOL!!!!!! That was what I was referring too.

[Circa]

I haven't actually tried this with coins, but I've had great success cleaning crud out of detailed copper and silver metalware with a toothbrush and mild toothpaste. Just stay away from anything with "extra whitening".

[1sgret]

If you use that on coins you will leave minute scratches on the surface of the coin. Any Toothpaste is an abrasive including ones without extra whitening (LOL) and so is the toothbrush.

[kloccwork419]

YEA...Very LOUD negative!!!!. Its works great on jewelry tho!!!

[mustbebob]

One thing I thought I would throw in this conversation concerning 'Acid Baths". First of all, there are many types of acid. We kind of use the term loosely when we deal with coins like this. The sand blasted finish normally associated with acid dipped coins is normally the result of a dip in sulfuric acid. There are many other chemicals that will eat away at copper. One other thing to remember is that while a coin is being eaten away, it normally does so uniformly. If you take a micro millimeter off the entire surface of a coin, the details still remain pretty crisp because of the depth of the striking.
Checking to see if a coin like this may have been struck on a foreign planchet is a very sound practice. However, even if a coin is struck on an improper planchet, the strike is normally just as crisp as it would be on the regular planchet. Anyway...just thought I would throw that info in there.

[Circa]

If you take a micro millimeter off the entire surface of a coin, the details still remain pretty crisp because of the depth of the striking.

Good points about the uniform reduction from most acids, but regarding the above, we're talking about a reduction of a full millimeter from the thickness of the coin. If we assume it's been reduced via a corrosive agent, uniformly, then each side of the coin has lost at least 1/2 millimeter of surface at all points.

To my thinking, the original coin would have to have been an unusually deep and clear strike to have so much detail remain after the loss of a full 1/2 of the surface.

Checking to see if a coin like this may have been struck on a foreign planchet is a very sound practice. However, even if a coin is struck on an improper planchet, the strike is normally just as crisp as it would be on the regular planchet.

Sadly, I don't know much about the mechanics of the minting process during this period. But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express earlier this year, so I'll make the broad assumption that the striking hammers were carefully calibrated to apply a striking force specific to a planchet of a certain thickness and density. No more, no less, or the result would be potentially "squished" coins due to an over-application of force or an abundance of weak strikes from too little force.

If the above is even close to correct, then the insertion of a planchet 1/2 the thickness of the "assumed" planchet should result in a weak strike, due to the cessation of force by the striking hammer at a point half way before the dies were fully impacted upon the smaller planchet.

The Phillipino 1/2 centavo produced at the Philadelphia mint just prior to my penny was, before circulation and wear, 18mm in diameter and weighed 30 grains. My coin is a pubic hair over 18mm and weighs 27.8399 grains. Just sayin'.

[mustbebob]

I understand what you are saying about this coin. For some reason, you are assuming that this planchet was most likely that of a 1/2 centavo. My statements were based on what I know, and what is the most likely explanation of the coin in question. In addition, other folks have given you their opinions based on what they know. Ultimately, the coin needs to be examined in hand. Analysis like this can and will determine what happened to this coin. Mike Diamond of CONECA is one of the foremost experts in this field. I believe he has already given his opinion on it. Even so, it is based on photos and not in hand analysis. I wouldn't assume anything until this step is completed. After seeing countless examples of coins like this, I would tend to agree with his analysis. I personally have a few coins that have the same problems as yours, and each has been identified as chemically altered. The major sticking point to this whole thing is that the coin is almost 100 years old. It's hard to say what did happen to it.

[1sgret]

My suggestion as before is to contact Mike D. again and ask him to look/evaluate the coin in hand. He will e-mail you the particulars for submission.

[snowman]

does anyone have any acid dipped pennies that are know to have for comparison.

with this 1911 it looks like dime size but also has to be alot thinner than a dime to get to the 1.8 grams because in the red book clad dimes weigh 2.27 - roughly over 42% of the copper is gone if it was struck on a original 3.11 planchet

so just wondering if anyone has any chemical treated pennies and how much do they weigh ?

[laytonre]

i posted early on this and had a acid dipped coin, dont remember all about it not my coin, but post pics and weight, had a lot of detailes, had to send to bob to let me hold in hand, since that first thin coin have seen several here and im under the impression that most of the experts are going to say the same thigh aicd bath, the only real way is to have someone with knowledge look at it, pm mike or bob talk to them about looking at it...ill say it one more time i would have bet money that the one i had was a wrong plachant and that acid was wrong because of detail..richard

[mustbebob]

Here are a couple of pics of a known acid dipped coin. Even though it has many carbon spots, it shows what I am talking about. The 1981 D coin weighs in at 1.95 grams. As you might expect, it is extremely thin also. This coin does show the tell-tale 'sand-blasted' finish on the obverse you would associate with being acid dipped. The reverse however, does not show that kind of surface as much. In spite of the weight and thickness, (almost the same as your 1911) the devices are still very noticeable and readable.
Mike Diamond made some diagnostic statements in his reply. He talked about perfect centering, unusually thin letters etc. These all lend to his opinion based on the pictures presented to him.
As far as the machinery that strikes the coins, you are correct in that it has adjustments. However, there are other physical properties that keep the coin from being 'squished' because of excessive pressure. The planchet is housed in a collar while being struck. The collar retains the outward metal flow. the pressures exerted on the planchets themselves is tremendous. It would not surprise me that a planchet half the thickness would receive an almost full impression. There are numerous 'tapered planchet' errors out there too.... a result of improper rolling of stock while the metal was being prepared to make coin blanks.
I am sure you have noticed coins in your searches where some coins have what looks like real deep and crisp strikes, while others have mushy appearances, even in early die states. Yes...striking has a large part in what your coin will look like, and you are correct in pointing that out. However, in lieu of everything I have stated here, I still think Mike Diamond should get his hands on it for verification.

[1sgret]

Here are photos of a "Tapered Planchet" or Rolled Thin Planchet.
This one weighs 1.8 Grams and still retains the upset rim. It is soft struck however all of the detail of the devices do not show on the Obverse nor on the Reverse. This is an example.