What's wrong with the Grading Companies?

[liveandievarieties]

The original color of a Lincoln has long been a concerning matter- plenty of people alter the luster or tone of a cent in an attempt to improve the coin or fool a prospective buyer. In the past, the TPGs have been helpful in establishing that a coin has been messed with. But now, anything that looks too nice, is called "questionable color" by PCGS or "recolored" by ANACS. In fact, I've stopped submitting choice MS cents to ANACS because each time I pull a die variety in phenomenal grade out of an original bankwrapped roll, it comes back "recolored". Now I send them to NGC where they get accurately graded, not attributed, but the varieties still bring a good premium for what they are, as opposed to being accused of being a problem coin.

Here's a perfect example: http://www.teletrade.com/coins/lot.a...=3230&lot=1060

My friend in Oregon is helping his neighbor to disperse his collection and settle his estate. One of the incredible items in the collection is an original bankwrapped roll of 1935-S cents. '35-S is a pretty pricey coin in Gem Red condition. My friend pulled a dozen of the nicest (and they're VERY nice) and submitted them to PCGS. They started coming back as "questionable color". This is not only unfair, but it suggests that the people responsible for assigning grades to quite valuable coins have no idea what they are doing.

'35-S is known for having a richer and darker luster than it's philly counterpart. It's the nature of that mint and year, anyone who has handled a fair amount of Lincolns knows that each year has it's individual characteristics.

I'm losing more and more faith in the grading companies. It's frustrating that we have to play by their rules, that they are the ultimate decision maker, even though they may not be the experts in many cases.

What're your thoughts?

[pman860507]

I do agree that it is pretty messed up of them, but what really can you do but stop using them. Or try calling them out, complain etc.... It will always be impossible for these big companies to die off since there will always be people using them. What i wonder is if they are giving them Questionable color because they dont want to add another coin to the high grade.

One thing you can do is look online for a 1935-s that are graded by PGCS if the color is accurate with your coin vs the one already graded then contact there support and say WTF!!!.

Other then that i dont know what to tell you. sue them?

[seal006]

I have never been a huge fan of TPG companies. I have felt afraid that coin collecting would end up going the same direction baseball cards did. I had a baseball card business for almost 8 years. It was actually better before Beckett changed the hobby forever. After this monthly price guide for cards became regarded as "the bible" things started rolling downhill quickly. Now I see cards some 20 years after I stopped dealing them go for a very small fraction of what they once sold for, and a huge emphasis on "graded" cards. I have always thought that someone who collects or even invests in anything they should be knowledgable in what they are buying. If a dealer who makes his living dealing coins feels a coins is MS 63 then he will price it accordingly. Now if a knowledgable customer feels that same coin only looks to be MS 60 then he and the dealer can haggle until they can agree on a price. Relying on a TPG company to tell you the grade or to be to lazy to educate yourself as to what you feel a coin would grade, is only making this hobby hurt. It will turn this hobby the same way south card collecting went.

[Maineman750]

I feel the same way about TPG's as I do housing inspectors...they are in it for the money,they don't know what they're doing,millions of people buy in to it,and there is nothing we can do about it.

[1sgret]

It has been getting worse over the past couple of years since the fascination of the Registry Sets and Sniffer Machines.

I submitted two coins to NGC that were quite expensive from a well known author of a reference guide. Both coins came back as recolored and they came out of a OBW roll.

I returned the coins for a refund and the seller sent them into another grading service and they also came back as recolored. He complained but the grading services stood by there decisions. GO FIGURE!!!

[Wayne]

Truth is.....They dont have a clue...

as to REAL color.
Those people are smoking crack.
I sent in some Mercury dimes to NGC.They were in a Whittman holder since the 50's.
Same thing...questionable color.

Meanwhile back at the ranch....all the coin doctors get their phony colored coins in slabs.

[jallengomez]

That's ridiculous Chris. When I clicked on the Teletrade link I was expecting to see an end roll coin with dramatic toning, but are you kidding me? I can't even fathom why they called "questionable color" on that coin. If the grading services can't provide experts who should be familiar enough with a series to know the nuances of colors, then they have no business pretending to call the color into question.

[KennyMac]

And my friends wonder why I'm so hesitant to send my more spectacular coins in for grading.......

[papascoins]

Good thread chris!

I have rated this thread with a '5', and I would like to hear more opinions on this, including our experts, and whoever else has had experience with any TPG's. Is there any way that we, (as a group), can do more than publicize our opinion? (Like, 'get' to them to listen somehow).

Also, is it just the cents, (or copper coins of any type), or, does your experience include various copper-nickel clad or silver coins?

Thanks all.

[1sgret]

Is there any way that we, (as a group), can do more than publicize our opinion? (Like, 'get' to them to listen somehow).

It all boils down to making money and our minuscule comments are just that. (SMALL)

Like a pimple on an elephants behind...LOL

[amosamos16]

I agree 100%. Don't get me wrong they have their place, but it's out of control. I collect coins, not tpg opinions!!

[jcuve]

Maybe the TPGs should all STOP putting color on the label!
Problem solved.
Anyone listening?

[seal006]

I hear ya Jason. A MS64 is a MS64, 'nuff said.

[Coppertop]

Everybody has always told me the market is full of these "OBW" rolls. It always seems that most of you buy these and search these. Who really is to say they are real OBW. Many of you even attest to searching and reselling such rolls. Is it easy to distinquish a recolored coin? after all anything can be in those rolls. I've never understood this. Everybody in the world has a story of "oh man I got these things from my buddys estate, yadda yadda. Everybody on ebay and the rest of the world too, except the ones I have really are, right? One thing I have learned in this world is everybody is in it for themselves. Pokerplayers, crack dealers, the cute salesgirl trying to give you just enough to keep you coming back for more... if there can be a buck made, perhaps a buck is being made. Who really is to question those that deal with these coins on a daily basis, it's like questioning those that sold you those BU rolls. You send it in, you get the grade or you don't deal with the company. Don't get mad at the fish, he's just trying to eat too.

[liveandievarieties]

Everybody has always told me the market is full of these "OBW" rolls. It always seems that most of you buy these and search these. Who really is to say they are real OBW. Many of you even attest to searching and reselling such rolls. Is it easy to distinquish a recolored coin? after all anything can be in those rolls. I've never understood this. Pokerplayers, crack dealers, the cute salesgirl trying to give you just enough to keep you coming back for more... if there can be a buck made, perhaps a buck is being made.

This is where, experience, ethics, and integrity come in. If you're having these issues, you might look at the people you're handing your money over to.

As to whether an OBW is original or rewrapped- either know who you're buying from or have the experience to know. I can spot a rewrapped roll from across the room, a dozen things are usually wrong, pointing out that it's not original.

The market is not full of OBWs, they're scarcer and scarcer every day as more are opened. Once opened, they'll never again be what is called an OBW.

I guess the overall answer to your question is experience- whether it's the lack of experience of the grader at the TPG or an inexperienced collector. Someone who has extensive experience can differentiate between what it original and what is not.

As for your crack dealer, well, I'd keep better company.