What's wrong with the Grading Companies?

[onecent1909]

OK maybe this isnt the same but...
I just acquired a 1992 D close AM NGC graded... unc detailed scratched obv....... with NO scratches on the obv....
the rev has 1 scratch... a rare coin like this and you unc detail it? for a scratch?...OK OK I can take that BUT PLEASE put the scratch notation on the correct side.....

[seal006]

Chris I completely agree with your comments above. The issue you have raised is not important to me directly, as I do not deal in graded coins. It does affect me indirectly, as I see a trend of the emphasis being placed on graded coins. It is a slippery slope. One I hope our hobby does not fall victim to.

[Coppertop]

Maybe this belongs in a new thread but It be nice to distinquish the diferences of an OBW roll to one that is recrimped. Furthermore, coins simply placed into new rolls and crimped with a simple end tool which are readily available to anybody.

[WaterSport]

One of the reasons I started collecting plastic was to get uncleaned and un messed with coins for my collection. As you know, the premium goes up on pre 1934 cents in BU condition. TPG's were pretty good at grading copper, but when the guarantee for copper graded coins was established by PCGS, no one knew for sure that 10-15 years after TPG's slabbed copper it would in fact turn color for many reasons. Some because of the coin having been purposely messed with, some because it was exposed to conditions prior to and after being slabbed. PCGS was getting hit with so many request to honor the copper guarantee for changing copper, that they dropped the copper garantee in 2010. Since then, we saw them aggressively, and I might add rather unsuccessfully (legally) go after coin doctors. On a parallel track, they tried to cut the supply line if you would by simultaneously not grading copper coins that remotely looked off color. By this I mean that the coins the doctors were making were no longer being sought thus it was PCGS hope they would hit the coin doctors in the place it would hurt most. Thus collectors are now gun shy buying and submitting coins and the price of any copper coin of color in a PCGS holder usually brings a premium. PCGS's 'Sniffer" must not be all that it is cracked up to be if it can not tell if the copper has original oxidation or not. Most cent collectors were hoping it would stop the downward trend of not grading copper with any color. But it has not. The fact that PCGS is a public traded stock should tell you its not about customer service, its about making money, not grading money. Furthermore there is the question about the graders and finalizers who work at PCGS. I was always suspect that there were simply graders and finalizers who did not like copper, especially Lincoln cent copper. My fears were confirmed 2 weeks ago while talking to a trusted and very well known dealer. His comment to me was that he only submits his coins at shows and only after he knows which graders and finalizers were working that day! Since he knew all of them, he said out right that some could care less about cents!! And of course if I said any of this over on the PCGS site, they would simply throw me out. Go over and read the forum rules at the top of page and you will see how they control what is said about them and their service. So complaining can only be done face to face. But I would love it if there was enough collectors who would just say, for the month of March, no cents will be submitted to PCGS until as Chris says this craziness needs to be addressed. The only way I see the policy will change is to hit them were it hurts.

WS

[1sgret]

I agree because I am already boycotting PCGS as they are too expensive and I do not like there customer service. So if everyone does not send copper in any given month you already have one backer here..... (My 1/2 cents worth)

[garryn]

I can tell you what my experience was with PCGS. I had a 3 Leg Buffalo that I bought raw from a reputable dealer in the Chicago area. It was near mint state and had some great color to it, rose and blue. The dealer told me that the 3 Leg Buffalo does not come toned in colors, its always a shade of gray. So I took a chance and sent it to PCGS. It came back questionable color. I sent it in a second time and asked for reconsideration. I also sent an email to the President of PCGS, Rick Montgomery, asking him to look at the coin. He actually called me and we had a conversation about the coin. He said the coin was unquestionably mint state but he could not slab it as mint state due to the color but said he would slab it AU55. And thats what he did. Unfortunately I had to sell the coin recently. Lots of sellers remorse on that one. Maybe I will find it again. Maybe some personal intervention might help with your '35-S coins.

edited for spelling

[pman860507]

I agree because I am already boycotting PCGS as they are too expensive and I do not like there customer service. So if everyone does not send copper in any given month you already have one backer here..... (My 1/2 cents worth)

Lets do 1 year. no one send anything in until 2013.

[BadThad]

Chris - I've been complaining about this for years, it's absolutely out of hand. The bottomline is copper MUST meet their expectations and standards for color or they won't grade it. They simply don't want it in their slabs if it doesn't fall into a very tight range for look and color. I've also seen many natually toned coins rejected, I mean coins that are OBVIOUSLY original and undoctored. It doesn't matter, if it falls outside the TPG's norm, they will reject it.

Just like your sealed OBW roll, I've seen coins taken STRAIGHT from mint packaging rejected. COME ON????!!!! In one documented case a collector submitted the SEALED mint mailing box to the TPG and the coin came back "artificial color". So now, apparently, the mint is coloring coins before they package them. LOLOLOLOLOL

[BadThad]

And another point....

I've had a lot of people complain and send me pictures of rejected Lincolns. Just because a TPG says your coin is altered in some fashion does NOT make it positively so. Folks need to keep this in mind. While the TPG's do catch many legitimate, doctored coins, they are FAR from perfect. Don't go throwing your coin out because of what a TPG said!

I'll site an example: I had a really nice early Lincoln with a slightly off red color from oxidation. I know for CERTAIN this coin was completely original and full red. NGC sent it back to me as "artificial color". To prove them wrong, I cracked the slab and let the coin sit in my window sill for just over a year so it browned just a little. I resubmitted the coin to NGC and it came back MS-63RB.

[garryn]

It might be worth a phone call to try and talk them thru it.

[liveandievarieties]

I could type for days, great stories of the 2006 Doubled Ear DDOs (2) that I have in a PCGS holder stating that they're Satin Finish SP65s, or the PCGS '60D SD MS66 holder that I discovered in my own collection that has a LARGE DATE in it, or how they slabbed 2 examples of the 1969-D No FG FS901, and then when I sent in a dozen, all off of the same die, they declined the attribution yet kept my money.....

Sure, everyone makes mistakes, but when a company represents themselves as THE leader in the industry, shouldn't they stand behind that claim?

I can only conclude that the company employs inexperienced personnell, or is not confident enough in their own opinion to correctly assign accurate grades and identify original coins.

As for boycotting them? I can't really give up a year's worth of income, they get 60 to 100 of my coins every month.

[hasfam]

Interesting conversation, especially since I just put my toes in to test the TPG waters. Like anything else, it seems we have little choice but to accept the inconsistencies and work with it the best we can or not use them at all. I would not be surprise if the TPG's, like any other manufacturing company get their bread and butter from and lean towards very large coin companies and their submissions, ie; thousands per month opposed to individual collectors and small coin dealers.
I would hate to see coin collecting moving in a direction or changing based on TPG companies policies and decisions for profit, instead of the TPG companies following in the direction and movement of the collecting community. Giving support opposed to a dictatorship.

[jfines69]

Start a new grading company... Just remember though there is always the human factor... The human factor alone has its' drawbacks!!!

[eaxtellcoin]

One thing I have learned over the years folks- TPG's hold your coin! what I mean is they handle most coins in there hand, not the rim. SO if fingerprints develop over the years- well -it's red/brown now! That is all I have to say!

[coinman2009]

Wish i had more to say, But glad to take it all in. It is sad that it's this way.