1969-D radical die clash

[tomfiggy]

Are you sure this isn't a form of adhesive causing the appearance of a clash?

I soaked it in MS-70 for 1/2 hour, then verdi-care for a few minutes. I know what a glue job looks like. United is in a concave part of the field as is the memorial. It is "under the date". and over the field. It is all copper. Nothing has been glued on. If TPG's will grade a nail they should suspend disbelief and grade this. Lol
Just to make you happy I will soak it in acetone for a while today. Then A little verdi-care for protection. I'm going to send it to ANACS and see what they say. I'll just describe it as a die clash and see what they say.

[Petespockets55]

Ask yourself this question. Is it possible for a mint error to be made whereby features from a 1969 die and a 1981 die end up on the same coin?

WOW! Nice find. It appears to be double struck with raised design elements on both sides of the coin. Definitely suspect but when you consider other verified errors that have been produced at the mint, it is possible. Most likely an employee dropping a struck coin in the production process or a "wedged somewhere" struck coin finally shaken loose into the process.
Check this link for really bizarre American/Canadian double struck Quarter http://www.snopes.com/1970-quarter-ebay-canada/

[tomfiggy]

pics after acetone

Here are a few more new pics. Nothing melted away. I notice another numeral showing through the memorial bay 11. The MAD spread to the East makes the coin slightly larger than normal with the railroad rim present on both sides in the same position. The reverse appears slightly warped across the memorial.
I can't imagine "how or why". All I know is I found it in a Loomis roll, in a sealed mint box from my bank, and here it is.

[tomfiggy]

WOW! Nice find. It appears to be double struck with incuse design elements on both sides of the coin. Definitely suspect but when you consider other verified errors that have been produced at the mint, it is possible. Most likely an employee dropping a struck coin in the production process or a "wedged somewhere" struck coin finally shaken loose into the process.
Check this link for really bizarre American/Canadian double struck Quarter http://www.snopes.com/1970-quarter-ebay-canada/

The design elements are all obtuse
That guy is asking $35,000 for that quarter. Maybe I'm not going to mail it to ANACS. I might get a safe deposit box for it and contemplate my options. Any advice?

[GrumpyEd]

It is a simple fake.

The only uncertainty is that it may also have glue, it can be made the same way with a soft die, add a drop of super glue and it helps bring up more image while using less pressure so it leaves more of the victim coin intact and super glue is hard to see on coins and quick dip in acetone or MS70 won't get it off. Look really close for glue.

No safety deposit box needed, spend it and get your cent back.

[jallengomez]

No one here is saying that double strikes don't occur. They do. In all sorts of ways. Some can even be quite exotic, such as the one at this link. What people here are saying is that this is not a double strike. This was created by someone using fake dies. My guess is that they attempted to mold the dies from an existing coin and they didn't think it through all the way and didn't realize this manner of creating a fake die would end up producing mirrored images(some here seem to be having trouble wrapping their heads around that aspect of this coin as well).

And let's not anthropomorphize the lettering by calling them "obtuse."

[GrumpyEd]

No one here is saying that double strikes don't occur. They do. In all sorts of ways. Some can even be quite exotic, such as the one at this link. What people here are saying is that this is not a double strike. This was created by someone using fake dies. My guess is that they attempted to mold the dies from an existing coin and they didn't think it through all the way and didn't realize this manner of creating a fake die would end up producing mirrored images(some here seem to be having trouble wrapping their heads around that aspect of this coin as well).

Agreed!!!!!


Your comment about wrapping heads around that aspect made me laugh because after sleeping I got up and wrapped some tin foil on a cent (quickie soft die) then realized that by using the rev on the obv flips it but does not mirror it. After seeing that I was 100% sure it was made that way by a soft die not a real die.

[tomfiggy]

There is no glue. It is all copper. Whatever happened to it happened in the minting process. It could not have been done afterwards. I can't explain how it was minted but that is where it happened. I have the coin in hand. Nothing is incuse, there is no sign of anything pressed on to the coin. The 81 on the reverse is obtuse and lower in the field than America. You can not push anything ino the coin without disturbing the nearby features. The 81 is obtuse so it could not have been pushed in by definition.

[tomfiggy]

No one here is saying that double strikes don't occur. They do. In all sorts of ways. Some can even be quite exotic, such as the one at this link. What people here are saying is that this is not a double strike. This was created by someone using fake dies. My guess is that they attempted to mold the dies from an existing coin and they didn't think it through all the way and didn't realize this manner of creating a fake die would end up producing mirrored images(some here seem to be having trouble wrapping their heads around that aspect of this coin as well).

And let's not anthropomorphize the lettering by calling them "obtuse."

by calling the letters obtuse I was merely trying to dispel the mistake made by others trying to say the numbers were pushed into the coin as in a vice job. Just because people don't know how something happened dies not mean they can squint their eyes and pretend something is incuse
you are saying someone took a blank "soft die" and stamped a d and a date containing a 1 an 8 in it, then impressed a memorial reverse on top of it. Then took a blank soft die and pressed a reverse on it which mirrored it somehow then pressed a 1969 cent that didn't mirror it. Then Took both dies and somehow made a MAD strike? The copper of a cent was able to press into this soft die but the soft die was hard enough to mint the coin without shattering ? That is more unbeleivable than time travel sir.

[tomfiggy]

After a little more thought this is what I believe would have to happen to make a "fake" of this coin. One would need a 1969 die with a matching memorial reverse die. The reverse die would need to be imprinted with the mint mark and date of the 1981-D and only the date no other part of the coin touching as you hammered on it. . The '69 obverse die would need to be imprinted with a memorial reverse very deep into the die. So deep that the O of the one is deeper into the die than the coat. All of the reverse features are very deep in the die. So you take these dies and put them in the press and mint some coins. The coin I have is a severe MAD that's not going to happen on a bench vise. It would need to be struck in a minting press to create the MAD railroad rim. I don't believe for a minute that it was faked outside the mint. Maybe if you had master hubs you could make working hubs like this. I would believe that.

[jallengomez]

by calling the letters obtuse I was merely trying to dispel the mistake made by others trying to say the numbers were pushed into the coin as in a vice job. Just because people don't know how something happened dies not mean they can squint their eyes and pretend something is incuse
you are saying someone took a blank "soft die" and stamped a d and a date containing a 1 an 8 in it, then impressed a memorial reverse on top of it. Then took a blank soft die and pressed a reverse on it which mirrored it somehow then pressed a 1969 cent that didn't mirror it. Then Took both dies and somehow made a MAD strike? The copper of a cent was able to press into this soft die but the soft die was hard enough to mint the coin without shattering ? That is more unbeleivable than time travel sir.

Metal can be heated to a "soft" state to make a die. We're not talking about striking the coin with Silly Putty. Did you see the example of the coin I linked to? Have you seen any real double struck coins? If you do look at some, pay close attention and notice that there are still details left from the first strike that seem to defy(based upon your reasoning) explanation by remaining intact and that's after having been struck by a Schuler press! Indeed, you're going to have a harder time explaining your own scenario(tripped up by your own reasoning) by telling us how the details of the first strike on this coin were not obliterated when double struck at the mint. If it's going to happen by the guy with a hammer that we're suggesting, then it's surely going to happen with the mint's press which applies 35 tons per square inch of pressure.

[GrumpyEd]

you are saying someone took a blank "soft die" and stamped a d and a date containing a 1 an 8 in it, then impressed a memorial reverse on top of it. Then took a blank soft die and pressed a reverse on it which mirrored it somehow then pressed a 1969 cent that didn't mirror it. Then Took both dies and somehow made a MAD strike?

It's more like this:

1) They started with a normal 69-d.
2) They took 2 strips of metal and put them in a vise in their garage.
3) They put a 1981 in between those 2 sheets and squeezed them in the vise, it created imprints of the 81 in the sheets (soft die). (if the strips are heated up it works best)
4) They put the 69-D in the same spot but rotated and flipped and squeezed it in the vise. (maybe a drop of super glue with it)
Because the strip is soft not hard like a real die, it does not smash all the detail of the 69-d because it is also smashing into the strips but they are about equal so as much as it's smashing into the strip it's also doing to the coin so you see both images on the coin. You see the normal 69-D with some damage (what you think is MAD because it wasn't aligned perfectly). Copper won't shatter because it is soft metal. If they added super glue it's hard and clear and shows the copper color through it so if they used it that allows it to look like it brought up more detail (because part of what you see raised is clear glue) and do less damage to the coin. Look at the 69 in the date, it looks like it may be surrounded by glue which forms the building corner. Look on the other side of the coin in the field along the rim near liberty, it has a raised area that might be where the glue tappers down. Super glue is hard and clear and really hard to see on a coin. But they could get a similar effect even without glue because of how soft copper is. If you think copper shatters easily, get a hammer and a copper cent and hit it, it will get bigger but not shatter.
5) They took it out, someone eventually spent it and you found it.

[tomfiggy]

It's more like this:

1) They started with a normal 69-d.
2) They took 2 strips of metal and put them in a vise in their garage.
3) They put a 1981 in between those 2 sheets and squeezed them in the vise, it created imprints of the 81 in the sheets (soft die).
4) They put the 69-D in the same spot but rotated and flipped and squeezed it in the vise. (maybe a drop of super glue with it)
Because the strip is soft not hard like a real die, it does not smash all the detail of the 69-d because it is also smashing into the strips but they are about equal so as much as it's smashing into the strip it's also doing to the coin so you see both images on the coin. You see the normal 69-D with some damage (what you think is MAD because it wasn't aligned perfectly). Copper won't shatter because it is soft metal. If they added super glue it's hard and clear and shows the copper color through it so if they used it that allows it to look like it brought up more detail (because part of what you see raised is clear glue) and do less damage to the coin. Look at the 69 in the date, it looks like it may be surrounded by glue which forms the building corner. Look on the other side of the coin in the field along the rim near liberty, it has a raised area that might be where the glue tappers down. Super glue is hard and clear and really hard to see on a coin. But they could get a similar effect even without glue because of how soft copper is. If you think copper shatters easily, get a hammer and a copper cent and hit it, it will get bigger but not shatter.
5) They took it out, someone eventually spent it and you found it.

1) there is no glue. I have personally looked through at least 200,000 Lincoln cents. I have come across hundreds with glue, gum, shellac, you name it. Super glue dissolves quite easily in acetone. I have the coin and can see for myself it has only copper it is a 100% copper penny with no glue or foreign substance on it.
2) The coin is all toned together. Whatever was done was done 30 years ago before they even had super glue.
3) without the glue your theory does not hold up.

[jfines69]

It is up to you on what you would like to do with this coin... Everyone here will be more than happy to be wrong... It would be a learning experience for every one... If you send it in to to ANACS or one of the other TPGs make sure you lets us know what their determination is... It will be interesting to say the least!!!

[enamel7]

I will definitely be happy if wrong. Did you send an email to Mike Diamond? Oh, also super glue was invented in 1942. Please let us know what you find out.