MAD Clash?

[Petespockets55]

You are not kidding when you said that your pics weren't that good for showing this clash... A very nice obv/rev clash but a strange one also... There are also no abrasions from the mint attempting to remove the clashes at least not that I see... I did a close up overlay and have included a set of close ups with pointers... The pointers are of the easy to see clashes... There is a lot going on that I did not point out as there is not enough space on the pics to put the pointers in If you compare the overlay and the other close ups you will see all the clashes... The dies are misaligned and some what convex otherwise parts of LIBERTY would have show up in the bays as well as columns and bays on the obv!!!

Superb images Jim.
Your images explain why I couldn't picture the overlay in my mind.
On the reverse the interior central elements of the obverse die are prevalent, while the "normal" elements (ie: TY, top of head, C, NT, etc) aren't showing up. (Sort of like an inverse(?) clash!)

The clashed area under the steps is the top of the ear/hair so the curved line of bumps coming off it to the SE must be the hair line.
Really super images showing off the detail.

I can't believe how much detail you pulled out of the obverse. I only saw the short horizontal line to the left and above of the notch is his lapel.

You're so right about so much going on with this one.
And since it appears no polishing was done to remove it, it makes my imagination go into overdrive wondering what is hidden on other coins by all the heavily polished lines and thick multiple gouges from the mint workers.
Cliff

[jfines69]

Superb images Jim.
Your images explain why I couldn't picture the overlay in my mind.
On the reverse the interior central elements of the obverse die are prevalent, while the "normal" elements (ie: TY, top of head, C, NT, etc) aren't showing up. (Sort of like an inverse(?) clash!)

The clashed area under the steps is the top of the ear/hair so the curved line of bumps coming off it to the SE must be the hair line.
Really super images showing off the detail.

I can't believe how much detail you pulled out of the obverse. I only saw the short horizontal line to the left and above of the notch is his lapel.

You're so right about so much going on with this one.
Cliff

I think the lite angles and that I use image stacking helps a lot... There is a lot going on with the clash!!!

[VAB2013]

What a great die clash! Jim, your photos and overlay are excellent and you did a fantastic job showing where the clash marks are located! Congrats Cliff for finding this one! Guys, this die clash has clash marks showing up where I've never seen them show up before! Definitely one to keep nearby for when we hear back from Jason!

[jfines69]

What a great die clash! Jim, your photos and overlay are excellent and you did a fantastic job showing where the clash marks are located! Congrats Cliff for finding this one! Guys, this die clash has clash marks showing up where I've never seen them show up before! Definitely one to keep nearby for when we hear back from Jason!

That is what makes this one strange for me but it all lines up... I really do wish Jason was back with us... His photographs are top notch!!!

[Petespockets55]

Theory 1 is that maybe the obverse had been heavily polished which would have removed the outer elements (devices and field) on the face of the die, allowing the center devices of the die to show up. But even though I see fairly strong die flow lines I don't see any evidence of the exterior devices having been polished away.
The only way I see this happening is if the mint replaced the original obverse die that had been heavily polished around the perimeter with one that had already been used in production (which may explain the die flow lines).

Theory 2 is that the obverse die was manufactured convex instead of concave.

Theory 3 is that the obverse die had a catastrophic failure and imparted the design on the reverse die.

[jfines69]

Theory 1 is that maybe the obverse had been heavily polished which would have removed the outer elements (devices and field) on the face of the die, allowing the center devices of the die to show up. But even though I see fairly strong die flow lines I don't see any evidence of the exterior devices having been polished away.
The only way I see this happening is if the mint replaced the original obverse die that had been heavily polished around the perimeter with one that had already been used in production (which may explain the die flow lines).

Theory 2 is that the obverse die was manufactured convex instead of concave.

Theory 3 is that the obverse die had a catastrophic failure and imparted the design on the reverse die.

Theory 1 - If it was a different obv die we wouldn't have the marks from the rev die
Theory 2 - The dies are made flat across the face to the best of my knowledge... They become convex thru wear and/or polishing around the outer edges
Theory 3 - There are no signs of impending failure (cracks, chips) on the obv

A strange clash but very cool looking clash... I think it's awesome you spotted it... Most people (including me) would most likely have thought some sort of die damage or even gas bubbles!!!

[Petespockets55]

What a great die clash! Jim, your photos and overlay are excellent........... Definitely one to keep nearby for when we hear back from Jason!

Any additional thoughts Jason?

[VAB2013]

Any additional thoughts Jason?

Hey Cliff, you might want to PM Jason with a link to your thread. It's jcuve

[Petespockets55]

Will do. Thanks