Error Other | 1909 P V.D.B. with extra wheat heads...possibly rotated on first strike?

[Coin Wired]

I was imaging this 1909 I've had for years to get an idea on a grade when i noticed misaligned outlines of the wheat heads, almost like they're doubled. i circled the areas in question and provided some close ups as well. can someone explain what happened here?

[Petespockets55]

I'm sorry to say I'm not seeing the doubled areas, even in the circled images.
The closeup is a little out of focus.
The line through the U of UNITED appears to be a long die gouge.

[GrumpyEd]

The green and red below it look like areas with polishing lines.

[Coin Wired]

yeah it's sorta hard to see, but i was able to play with the contrast on what i think is one of the easier things to see. next to the left wheat head i can see a double wheat which i got closer and circled. the V.D.B. is also odd looking as well, to the right of the letters you'll see the same letter again, so VV DD (which is harder to see), then BB (the top part of the B is more visible). i dunno it just seems like it was struck once then rotated and struck again.

[enamel7]

Nothing there. Just a case of pareidola.

[TPring]

Nice looking coin.

Good luck on the DDR -- Does look like something is there. The circled items near the lower part of the left wheat stock [circled in green & red] look like tiny mole trails.

Does this coin have a rotated reverse?

[Coin Wired]

that's what i was thinking it looked rotated to me. the wheat stalk, at least to me, on the right has a ghosted tip to the north west, also at the bottom of the stalk has a ghost image (stem) to the South East. the stalk on the left has a ghost of the wheat directly to the east which are better seen in my second post pictures. below the stem to the South East is a ghost image of the stem as well.

since I'm already posting this coin, can someone take a look at this picture and see if you can tell if a mint Mark is on the obverse? i may just be seeing it but need some other opinions, kinda looks like an S.

[GrumpyEd]

No S there.

If you can clearly see the dots between the V.D.B that can also help you verify.
All S VDBs have V. D . B with the dot near the V.

The plains mostly have it centered but some are near the V. So if the dot is centered it can not be an S.

[Petespockets55]

that's what i was thinking it looked rotated to me. the wheat stalk, at least to me, on the right has a ghosted tip to the north west, also at the bottom of the stalk has a ghost image (stem) to the South East. the stalk on the left has a ghost of the wheat directly to the east which are better seen in my second post pictures. below the stem to the South East is a ghost image of the stem as well.

since I'm already posting this coin, can someone take a look at this picture and see if you can tell if a mint Mark is on the obverse? i may just be seeing it but need some other opinions, kinda looks like an S.

Coin Wired and Tpring are referring to different "Rotation".

A little clarification on the definition of rotated reverse.
Here is the definition from our glossary (LINK is here to see images)

"Rotated Die Strike: This is when a coin is struck by dies that are out of correct rotational orientation with respect to each other. When you turn a normally orientated U.S. coin over in a “north to south” or “top to bottom” direction, the design on the opposite side should now also be correctly oriented for viewing. This will not be the case if the dies are out of rotation. The mint tolerance for die rotation is 15 degrees, but coins with struck by rotated dies don’t start to command a good premium until the die rotation is much greater than that. There are several instances in the Lincoln series with the most well-known being a 1994 with 165 degree rotation. Below is a 1994 with 165 degree rotation, and a 1910 showing 90 degree rotation. Photo of the 1910 courtesy of forum member duck620."

BTW- I'm not sure what can cause the slight ghosting northwest of the right wheat tip.

[Coin Wired]

thank you all for the input and clarifications. this is one of the first coins my dad showed me when i was a kid. ever since then I've just had a special interest in all kinds of currency.

[TPring]

Coin Wired and Tpring are referring to different "Rotation".

Yes, I was just wondering if somehow the strike on the obverse created ridges on the reverse -- There is a name for that, but it escapes me now.

[mustbebob]

I haven't said anything on this thread because I wanted to see how it went. There really is nothing there except some abrasion lines. You really have to understand how coins are struck to understand why most of this conversation is off the mark. If a coin is double struck, full elements are visible, not just outlines. The 'ghosting' you mention is really nothing either. Although in nice condition, this coin is circulated, and as such bears markings and wear from over 100 years ago. I think Enamel7 had it right from the beginning:

Nothing there. Just a case of pareidola.

[VAB2013]

Thank you very much Bob and way to go enamel! See... Bob is watching over us and we don't even know it that is really awesome!!!

[enamel7]

Thank you very much Bob and way to go enamel! See... Bob is watching over us and we don't even know it that is really awesome!!!

Bob's my hero!

[GrumpyEd]

Yes, I was just wondering if somehow the strike on the obverse created ridges on the reverse -- There is a name for that, but it escapes me now.

You might be thinking of "Progressive Indirect Design Transfer" but that mostly makes the ghost image (like the bust outline showing on a reverse). It's another way that normal die wear shows over enough use.