1911-D RPM#3 and RPM#6

[eaxtellcoin]

I'm clarifying my thoughts on this since it looks like I skipped from the OBV to the REV die above, cut down on confusion.
I have seen way to many copies of this coin for the OBV Die to have a short life. - That is if Die #3 and Die #6 are the same.
The REV Die looks like it was changed out LDS/VLDS with a new LDS Die.

The Question comes back always is this the Same OBV Die? We have one minor marker for the OBV die, on my copies of RPM#6. We need to know if the discovery piece has this marker.

[kloccwork419]

I dont see that small die dot breaking the clear fact this is the same die, but its on RPM-3
83588428_Large.jpg

[centMD]

I'm clarifying my thoughts on this since it looks like I skipped from the OBV to the REV die above, cut down on confusion.
I have seen way to many copies of this coin for the OBV Die to have a short life. - That is if Die #3 and Die #6 are the same.
The REV Die looks like it was changed out LDS/VLDS with a new LDS Die.

The Question comes back always is this the Same OBV Die? We have one minor marker for the OBV die, on my copies of RPM#6. We need to know if the discovery piece has this marker.

There is no way to know if that marker is on Paul's coin unless someone actually tracks that coin down physically. Why? The original description by John Bordner in The Comprehensive Guide to Lincoln Cent Repunched Mintmark Varieties, Volume 1: Wheat Cents 1909 to 1939 by John Wexler, Brian Allen, and John Bordner (published in 2003) does not mention the dot. When this book was published, Mr. Bordner had seen Paul's coin as well as a lower grade coin by Brian Allen. That's where the 2003 description came from. It isn't until Mr. Bordner found his high grade example (after publication of this book) that he updated his marker description to include that specific marker, and all the additional markers currently mentioned on doubleddie.com.

2003 book description of 1911-D WRPM-003.
Die markers: Obverse: None recorded.
Reverse: Die crack from the rim at 2:30 o'clock to the wheat ear.

Dan

[kloccwork419]

If it helps any, Brian Allen been following this thread. Loves it all and believes its the same die. Not sure if he logs in to look or if its on guest. Wish he could chime in with his thoughts

Thank you for contributing to the 1911D RPM-003 vs RPM-006 dialogue on LCF. I think it is a very healthy conversation. The 1911D RPM thread is good as it brought up previous chatter about the validity of two dies. I think the RPM-003 & RPM-006 are the same variety. I have many overlays etc, for my collection, they are the same. I peruse the LCF conversations a good bit. I do not have authority to view pictures or comment. I don’t know why, perhaps I have not registered some how. Anyhow, it’s a neat place to see what others are doing.

[willbrooks]

I believe Brian has already been contacted about it to ask for additional photos. I'm working on the final piece of the puzzle now, which if I'm successful, will put the matter to rest.

[willbrooks]

I dont see that small die dot breaking the clear fact this is the same die, but its on RPM-3
[ATTACH=CONFIG]151303[/ATTACH]

I've looked at 10 high grade examples, some labeled as 3 by pcgs, some IDed as 6. All of them have the die dot. As Dan pointed out, the question is, is it on the plate coin? If this can be coupled with the existence or lack of the reverse die aberration, we will also know if the reverse die was changed out. Wish me luck.

[kloccwork419]

I believe Brian has already been contacted about it to ask for additional photos. I'm working on the final piece of the puzzle now, which if I'm successful, will put the matter to rest.

I was talking to him and he said he cant see images or comment on here. Maybe Roger can fix it.

[stoneman227]

There are die scratches going north from the plate coins mintmark if that helps the situation.
I didn't post this composite of Dans pictures and the VV plate coin on this site because the pics were not mine

John

https://www.flickr.com/photos/7964616@N02/49916830957/in/dateposted-public/

[kloccwork419]

Where you find that Doubled Dog Reverse pic John?. Lol

[willbrooks]

There are die scratches going north from the plate coins mintmark if that helps the situation.
I didn't post this composite of Dans pictures and the VV plate coin on this site because the pics were not mine

John

https://www.flickr.com/photos/796461...posted-public/

I noticed that also, but I'm not convinced that it is a die scratch as of yet. It looks like it may be a scrape that also shows on the top of the Mint mark. But it does lend more credibility to the 2 coins being one and the same.

[eaxtellcoin]

Dr. Brian Allen has updated all three die stages of RPM#3 - #6 on the Coppercoins website. I was asked to inform everyone.

Notice stage "C" has alot of Die pull on the E of One and the die cracks are forming a pre cud on the right wheat and the crack on the left wheat. It is very plausible the REV die failed a little after this point. Notice the OBV die still does not show heavy sever ware. It's very possible the REV die was changed at LDS and coupled with Die #3 OBV die - both dies at LDS. Just an update.

[willbrooks]

Thanks for the update, Eric.

[WaterSport]

This is good news since this valuable resource has not had reference pics for most of the 1911 D RPMs. However, I swear (here I go again LOL) I think RPM 2 and RPM 6 are the same coin -just different die states. I have a MS 64 RED VEDS that has many markers of what I think are found on both coins. I realize that just because it’s in a PCGS attributed holder as a RPM 2, does not mean PCGS got it right. Hey, I may in fact a very nice RPM 6 and did not know it. But whatever it is, I think the similarities are so close its worth a second look by others. Since I do not have permission to use the CC pictures I can only post mine for comparison. See what you think. Maybe its worth Dr. Allen to examine my coin ??? I would be happy to send it to him.

ALL- feel free to use my pictures as much as you like. I will start with the CC RPM 2. If you do an overlay of the date and mint mark of both the CC listing for the 2 and 6 - they look very, very close. If you examine the coin date and mint mark of RPM 2 picture on the CC site, I can see at least 3 die dots that match my coin. Bottom left of the 1, right side a bit below the letter 1 and 1/3 way up the right side of the 9. I cannot get as focused or up close as the CC pic, but look at the locations I have circled the dots on my pics and compare to the CC pics and the one thing is the number of matches. The same for the IGWT dots and the markers for the TRUST.

Now of course if I have all of these markers then I would have a RPM 2 coin – but as I said, I also have all OTHER makers for the RPM 6 coin as well. So my feeling is both CC coins are the same – regardless of what you label them. But I am not the expert so please chime in. This is what the forum is all about.

1911Drpm2o.jpg1911Drpm2r.jpgdate dots.jpegIGWTdots.jpgtrust dots.jpeg6in.jpeg6we.jpeg6forehead.jpeg6diecrack.jpeg

[willbrooks]

Bob, you're absolutely correct, but be careful which prefixes you use. 1MM6 and RPM6 are not the same and this mess is confusing enough. Anyway, I believe this is a mistake by Brian. A little birdie pointed it out to me and I agree. I have already notified the new attributor of the error a while ago, but it hasn't been corrected yet. I believe it will be. I'll make sure to send a reminder.

[eaxtellcoin]

Brian is aware of the WRPM#2 and WRPM#6 question. He posted something to me last week he was going to look at this. I can post my RPM#2 MS64BN but I think we need to start another thread. Bob - start another thread!!