"Final" Numismatic Photography Setup

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  • ray_parkhurst
    Paid Member

    • Dec 2011
    • 1855

    #46
    Originally posted by Roller
    Here's the rig Ray. Comments?
    Roller...Absolutely love the setup! That slider looks super rigid and adjustable, should be a great copy stand.

    That said, you have a severe limitation with that setup using a 55mm Micro lens. It's possible you will never get the stand much above its minimum extension because it just won't focus at longer working distances. To explain the problem, I've got to explain magnification in an optical system, so don't go to sleep...

    First, let's discuss magnification. Using a Nikon APS-C camera as example, the sensor height is ~16mm. Thus to fill the sensor with an image of a 19mm diameter Lincoln Cent, the magnification is 16/19mm, or M=0.84.

    Nikon cameras have a "register" distance, ie the distance from sensor to the lens mount plane, of 46.5mm. This is the distance that any Nikon mount lenses are designed to give infinity focus. All lenses extend somewhat either inside or outside this register distance. Your 55mm Micro actually sits outside by about 8.5mm when focused at infinity, so it sits exactly 55mm from the sensor at infinity focus as a 55mm lens should.

    The Nikon Bellows-2 you are using has a minimum extension of approx 50mm. This includes the physical length of the bellows "standards" and the mounts. This minimum extension adds to the "register" distance.

    The critical number to calculate magnification is the Total Extension. For your system, the minimum total extension of the lens from the sensor is 46.5mm + 8.5mm + 50mm = 105mm.

    The magnification of a lens system is given by:

    M = (Total Extension - Focal Length) / Focal Length

    With the numbers from your system, the minimum magnification is:

    M = (105 - 55) / 55 = 0.91

    This is more than 0.84 so is too much magnification to frame a Lincoln Cent on your sensor! And there is little you can do about it with the system you have. There are bellows available that have shorter minimum distance that you can use, but most are at least 40mm, though you really only need a few mm less to get the whole Cent in the picture.

    You could use a full-frame camera, with 24mm sensor, but that's a big extra expense.

    Unfortunately, your best option may be to shift over to a longer lens. For the system you've constructed, the 105mm Micro is a better choice. Working through the numbers gives a minimum magnification of 0.47 with the 105 Micro. Even this may get a bit annoying to you since you need minimum magnification of 0.42 to fill the sensor with a Dollar, but at least you have plenty of length for Cents.

    An even better approach may be to use an enlarging lens instead of a Macro lens. A 105mm EL-Nikkor has very little if any lens extension, so would allow nearly infinity focus with your system. 135mm and 150mm EL-Nikkors are available as well and would allow much bigger working distances and lighting flexibility.

    Hope this helps...Ray
    Builder of Custom Coin Photography Setups. PM me with your needs or visit http://macrocoins.com

    Comment

    • ray_parkhurst
      Paid Member

      • Dec 2011
      • 1855

      #47
      Originally posted by Amadauss
      Ray, have you tried raising the f stop up to 8 or 9?
      Higher f-stops are generally not needed for coins since they are fairly flat objects, assuming you can get your camera sensor and coin on parallel planes. There are simple methods to do this if you are interested.

      The problem with larger f-stops is diffraction. While f8-f9 is not a problem, this is not the true aperture setting for the system. The aperture shown on the lens is for infinity focus, when M=0. When M>0 the effective aperture is:

      Feff = Finf (1+ M)

      I like to keep the Feff less than 12 to avoid diffraction. For a Cent photo, with f5.6, Feff is:

      Feff = 5.6 (1 + 0.84) = 10.3

      If I go to f9 for a Cent:

      Feff = 9 ( 1 + 0.84) = 16.6, which will definitely start to limit sharpness due to diffraction.

      ...Ray
      Builder of Custom Coin Photography Setups. PM me with your needs or visit http://macrocoins.com

      Comment

      • coppercoins
        Lincoln Cent Variety Expert
        • Dec 2008
        • 2482

        #48
        You've stepped way over my level of understanding any of this. I don't understand the formulas and math, what I want is a set-up that does what yours does, and I'll pay for it. I want to be able to get everything from the whole coin in the frame up to just the date and mintmark.

        Can you explain what I need and where I can get it? I have a Nikon D-80 camera, and a very good, heavy professional Polaroid copy stand. I also have a rather healthy understanding of my camera and settings, I just have no idea about bellows and lenses. I have a 50MM macro and a 105MM macro.
        Charles D. Daughtrey, NLG, Author, "Looking Through Lincoln Cents"
        [URL="http://www.coppercoins.com/"]http://www.coppercoins.com[/URL]

        Comment

        • ray_parkhurst
          Paid Member

          • Dec 2011
          • 1855

          #49
          Originally posted by coppercoins
          You've stepped way over my level of understanding any of this. I don't understand the formulas and math, what I want is a set-up that does what yours does, and I'll pay for it. I want to be able to get everything from the whole coin in the frame up to just the date and mintmark.
          Sorry, I knew it would be a bit much for most folks but I wanted to explain it thoroughly.

          I assume you are interested mostly in shooting Lincoln Cents, correct? The recommendations may be a bit different if you want to shoot Morgan Dollars full-frame as well. Adding Dollars doubles the total magnification range needed in the system.

          Can you explain what I need and where I can get it? I have a Nikon D-80 camera, and a very good, heavy professional Polaroid copy stand. I also have a rather healthy understanding of my camera and settings, I just have no idea about bellows and lenses. I have a 50MM macro and a 105MM macro.
          Long Post follows...Executive Summary at the bottom...Ray

          Yes, no problem, though there are a wide variety of options available. First thing I would recommend is to not use the existing lenses. Not that they aren't good lenses, but especially for bellows use they might not be appropriate.

          For full-frame images, my recommendation is to buy a Rodenstock 75mm f4 Apo-Rodagon D M1:1 ("75ARD1"). I have not found anything that beats it for coins other than a Printing-Nikkor. All the photos I've been posting recently used the 75ARD1 and it is a superb lens for coins. Working distance for Cents is 5-1/4" so there is just enough room to get lighting where you need it using something like the Jansjo gooseneck LEDs. The lens is available fairly often on eBay, or you can buy one new at B&H or other retailer.

          The 75ARD1, on a 160mm bellows, will get you to approx 2:1 magnification. This isn't high enough for framing the date and MM. For that you need to be at around 4-5X. A simple and cheap way to get there is simply to add a 2x teleconverter between camera and bellows. I'll post a pic of how this comes out later in the thread. There are many more options for high mag and I'll let the low mag discussion stew for a while before delving into higher mags.

          For bellows, since you are shooting Nikon and have a large copy stand available, I would recommend a Nikon PB4. It will give you not only easy interface with the camera without adapters, but also tilt and shift capability in case you want to experiment with tilting coins for optimizing your lighting, etc. Again, that's what I am using. I caution you however that the PB4 and 75ARD1 won't quite allow you to shoot full-frame Dollars. If you need to do that, I can make other recommendations.

          An option to the PB4 is the PB6. It is a wonderful bellows with super-precision quality, but does not do tilt/shift. either PB4 or PB6 will do well with your D80.

          You will need a Nikon-M39 adapter to mount the 75ARD1 to the bellows. These are cheap on eBay.

          One limitation you may find is your camera itself. The D80 has a couple limitations:
          - no Live View (far as I know)
          - no metering with manual lenses

          These are not showstoppers, they will just make imaging on the bellows a bit more tedious since you don't have live view for immediate focus feedback, and need to set exposure with trial and error.

          One issue that will become quickly obvious is the effect of vibration, especially for higher mags. I have found that resolution in my D7000 is limited by the vibration of the camera even at 3X. At these higher mags, keeping everything bolted down tight is critical, and often I have to do long exposures to average out the effects of shutter vibration. On your D80 you will also have mirror slap to deal with, so you may need to go to multi-second exposures to give the camera time to settle, or use a delayed flash. Mags at 3x or higher is a completely different world from 1x, and will need a lot more discussion.

          Realize also that I do some amount of post-processing with the images. For critical shots I shoot RAW, and do all my levels processing in RAW format. This is mostly critical for shadows, which are a lot less noisy when shooting RAW due to the massively higher dynamic range.

          Executive Summary:

          - I recommend the Rodenstock 75mm f4 Apo-Rodagon D M1:1 lens
          - I recommend either Nikon PB4 or PB6. I can explain usage as needed
          - Higher mag shots for varieties need further discussion
          - I recommend Jansjo gooseneck LED lights (cover with a piece of tissue to diffuse)

          By the way, if you do decide to buy a new camera, let's discuss it on here first as I'm in process of comparing Nikon vs Canon for bellows shooting.

          I also want to add that traditionally my bellows recommendation has been the Pentax Auto Bellows in M42 or the Vivitar Bellows in T-Mount. I still recommend these, but mostly in conjunction with usage on a microscope stand. With an existing, heavy duty copy stand, the larger Nikon bellows are excellent and as long as the user is shooting Nikon they require no camera adapters. Note the Pentax and Vivitar bellows (with focus rack) will still work well, and are less expensive alternates to the Nikons, but will require more adapters. If the user is shooting Canon, then the Pentax and Vivitar remain my top choices.
          Last edited by ray_parkhurst; 02-11-2012, 10:20 PM.
          Builder of Custom Coin Photography Setups. PM me with your needs or visit http://macrocoins.com

          Comment

          • coppercoins
            Lincoln Cent Variety Expert
            • Dec 2008
            • 2482

            #50
            Wow....just wow. You should get the man of the month award or something for the detail and clarity of your exchange here and the willingness to openly share such information. It is obvious that you are either a high-functioning super-genius or perhaps a normal genius who has spent a great deal of time learning what you are freely sharing here. Either way, still very brilliant. Good man.

            With regard to shooting images of larger coins - that would not be the purpose of the bellows set-up. I already have the Sigma 105mm macro for such shots. My purpose would be in being able to use the D80 to shoot mintmark photos, but I was hoping the solution would be less expensive than buying a new trinocular microscope.

            So this leads me to a question - what IS the advantage of using a bellows and enlargement lens over using two separate instruments a person (like me) might already have (a microscope plus a good copy stand setup)? Is there any particular benefit to having the bellows that I am overlooking?
            Charles D. Daughtrey, NLG, Author, "Looking Through Lincoln Cents"
            [URL="http://www.coppercoins.com/"]http://www.coppercoins.com[/URL]

            Comment

            • ray_parkhurst
              Paid Member

              • Dec 2011
              • 1855

              #51
              Originally posted by coppercoins
              Wow....just wow. You should get the man of the month award or something for the detail and clarity of your exchange here and the willingness to openly share such information. It is obvious that you are either a high-functioning super-genius or perhaps a normal genius who has spent a great deal of time learning what you are freely sharing here. Either way, still very brilliant. Good man.

              With regard to shooting images of larger coins - that would not be the purpose of the bellows set-up. I already have the Sigma 105mm macro for such shots. My purpose would be in being able to use the D80 to shoot mintmark photos, but I was hoping the solution would be less expensive than buying a new trinocular microscope.

              So this leads me to a question - what IS the advantage of using a bellows and enlargement lens over using two separate instruments a person (like me) might already have (a microscope plus a good copy stand setup)? Is there any particular benefit to having the bellows that I am overlooking?
              Thanks very much! I truly enjoy "talking macro" and the exchanges here, especially coupled with my main hobby of Lincoln Cent die varieties.

              The advantage the bellows gives is the ability to use the highest quality optics directly with your camera without anything extra getting in the way. That said, I've been very impressed with some of the photos coming from modest setups with cameras held up to microscopes, so there are obviously folks who make the very best of these.

              What I can tell you is the bellows route seems to give the best results I've been able to achieve to date, for either full-coin or detail shots.

              OK, all that said, I want to show the results for overall and variety shots using the 75ARD1. Here is an UNC 1949-D RPM#5 full-coin shot using the 75ARD1, downsized 4x for publishing (not cropped):



              Here is the same coin with the 75ARD1 but with bellows fully extended. Working distance is 2-3/4". This is a SINGLE image at f5.6 and is downsized 4x as above:



              Here is same as above but with lens at f4 and a 2-image stack using CombineZP:



              Here is the same as above but adding a 2X teleconverter between camera and bellows:



              And finally here is the third image (2-stack) but first cropped 2x and then downsized 2x:



              The crop and downsize shows sharpest result for a modest increase in the workflow.

              Note that the lighting wasn't changed between overall and detail shots. In an actual photo shoot, you'd likely move lights around to emphasize the shadows and surfaces to show a variety at its best.

              If the above quality is acceptable, then the 75ARD1 on its own will meet your needs. If you want a further step up in quality, you can get it by using another, shorter focal length lens. The shorter lens will allow you to get more magnification so you don't need to crop. Disadvantages with the shorter lens is less working distance, and the absolute need to do image stacking, likely more than 2 images, so the workflow starts to get more complex. There are always tradeoffs.

              Ray
              Last edited by ray_parkhurst; 02-12-2012, 09:51 AM.
              Builder of Custom Coin Photography Setups. PM me with your needs or visit http://macrocoins.com

              Comment

              • kloccwork419
                Banned
                • Sep 2008
                • 6800

                #52
                Close up arent a problem at all for me. I have a Canon T3 that came with EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS Type II Lens. I cant get a good full pic for anything. Im not sure if Im too close or what. Should I add a telephoto lens to the end of it or what do you suggest?. I have 2 Ikea lights in the mail on the way. I been stalking this thread trying to learn but your talkin WAY OVER my head. Any suggestions? Maybe something under a couple hundred?

                And what is the mirror doing?
                Last edited by kloccwork419; 02-12-2012, 09:58 AM.

                Comment

                • ray_parkhurst
                  Paid Member

                  • Dec 2011
                  • 1855

                  #53
                  Originally posted by kloccwork419
                  Close up arent a problem at all for me. I have a Canon T3 that came with EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 IS Type II Lens. I cant get a good full pic for anything. Im not sure if Im too close or what. Should I add a telephoto lens to the end of it or what do you suggest?. I have 2 Ikea lights in the mail on the way. I been stalking this thread trying to learn but your talkin WAY OVER my head. Any suggestions? Maybe something under a couple hundred?
                  How close is your lens to the coin when you take a close-up pic? You should have no problem taking an overall picture of the coin. The problem should be inability to get detail shots, but it sounds like you are able to do that? Best thing is to post a couple photos and describe the direction you want to go. In general I thought the 18-55 lenses can't quite get close enough to get a full pic of a Lincoln Cent, and at their closest distance start to cause problems for lighting...

                  For Canon users who don't want to go the full bellows route, I've been recommending a combo of a 50mm f1.8 Canon FD mount lens (typically $35 on eBay) along with a Vivitar 2X Macro Teleconverter in FD mount (maybe $40 on eBay). You will also need an adapter to go from FD to EOS mount (another $25 or so, try local camera shop first, then eBay). This will effectively give you a 100mm f3.6 1:1 macro lens for around $100. It won't beat the Canon 100mm f2.8 macro for sharpness, but will beat your 18-55 and give you a lot of lighting flexibility with the added working distance.

                  And what is the mirror doing?
                  Ahh yes, the mirror. It is there for three purposes:

                  1) for calibrating flatness of sensor to coin
                  2) for calibrating positions of my lights
                  3) for giving a smooth surface to move my stage plate around on

                  ...Ray
                  Builder of Custom Coin Photography Setups. PM me with your needs or visit http://macrocoins.com

                  Comment

                  • Amadauss
                    Member
                    • Oct 2011
                    • 832

                    #54
                    Originally posted by coppercoins
                    You've stepped way over my level of understanding any of this. I don't understand the formulas and math, what I want is a set-up that does what yours does, and I'll pay for it. I want to be able to get everything from the whole coin in the frame up to just the date and mintmark.

                    Can you explain what I need and where I can get it? I have a Nikon D-80 camera, and a very good, heavy professional Polaroid copy stand. I also have a rather healthy understanding of my camera and settings, I just have no idea about bellows and lenses. I have a 50MM macro and a 105MM macro.
                    If you are going to go this level, You might where you live have a camera shop that will let you rent out some camera's along with some macro lens or if you plan on keeping your camera just rent the lens and give it a try and see what you think. If you are going to purchase the setup he suggested. Only a thought.

                    Comment

                    • kloccwork419
                      Banned
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 6800

                      #55
                      ok. I can take high quality pix thru my Amscope with the T3 and the scope adapter I have from Amscope for the Canon. FOr some reason the full pix I take with my camera being on a stand suck really bad. Rarely I get one that I would post but today seems worse. Do you suggest I get the rig of lens to make the 1:1 or just buy the real thing?. I know my lighting sucks too. I made the stand at work (Fabricator)and Im not sure if its high enough. I can buy anything at a reasonable price but Im not going for the $2000 lens. Id rather spend that on my truck..lol. I just cant get anything in a good enough sharpness to share.

                      Comment

                      • Roller
                        Member
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 6975

                        #56
                        Another question Ray. I'm having a bad time focusing through the viewfinder and the D70 does not have live view. So, I'm thinking of getting the Nikon camera control pro 2 software to remedy this. It is my understanding that the software would give me the ability to pre view any shot on my computer screen and focus in using the screen. At least that is what Nikon tells me. Have you had any experience with the pro 2 and is it true that I could perform the task I intend to?

                        Comment

                        • Amadauss
                          Member
                          • Oct 2011
                          • 832

                          #57
                          Originally posted by Roller
                          Another question Ray. I'm having a bad time focusing through the viewfinder and the D70 does not have live view. So, I'm thinking of getting the Nikon camera control pro 2 software to remedy this. It is my understanding that the software would give me the ability to pre view any shot on my computer screen and focus in using the screen. At least that is what Nikon tells me. Have you had any experience with the pro 2 and is it true that I could perform the task I intend to?

                          And quoting for kloccwork question:

                          Not trying to steel your thunder Ray because you are the master of this, the pics are fantastic! To Roller and Kloccwerk, taking with my camera attached to the AM scope I have realized is not going to cut it. No matter what I do, and believe me have gotten a great deal of help on other forum sites about how to do this, the pics for the most part do not turn out great. To many factors come into play. Most DLSR's work in conjunction with the lens they are using to take the pictures. When you use the camera body and attach it to a part that really gives no feadback to the camera and just lets it sit on top of the scope, it just does not do it. This is not only my opinion. I am thinking would have better luck going with a USB camera of high pixel rate and using that with the scope.

                          Also using the canon EOS utility similar to the nikon utility, taking pics with my scope and camera together, I found getting them to match up, again what I saw on the computer screen was not the final result after taking the pic in many cases.

                          Using Ray's setup separate on a stand and set up like he has it is the way to have the perfect pic and will work much better with any utility you use to few on screen. Plus the utility allows you to use the mouse to click the trigger on the camera to take the pic so no vibration. You do not need a separate trigger to take the picture. Although with Ray's set up it looks so sturdy, I am sure you have no vibration.

                          Comment

                          • ray_parkhurst
                            Paid Member

                            • Dec 2011
                            • 1855

                            #58
                            Originally posted by kloccwork419
                            ok. I can take high quality pix thru my Amscope with the T3 and the scope adapter I have from Amscope for the Canon. FOr some reason the full pix I take with my camera being on a stand suck really bad. Rarely I get one that I would post but today seems worse. Do you suggest I get the rig of lens to make the 1:1 or just buy the real thing?. I know my lighting sucks too. I made the stand at work (Fabricator)and Im not sure if its high enough. I can buy anything at a reasonable price but Im not going for the $2000 lens. Id rather spend that on my truck..lol. I just cant get anything in a good enough sharpness to share.
                            You don't have to spend $2k for the lens. You don't really have to spend $300, unless you are needing the lens to walk on water like the 75ARD1 does. I did a "shootout" of a bunch of 75mm lenses a while back, many of which can be purchased for less than $30, and they ALL did just fine for all intents and purposes. I included the 75ARD1 for comparison, and even included the 105PN so readers could compare with perfection. A 1957-D Lincoln Cent Toner was the subject for all comparisons...

                            Here is the link to the post:



                            One important thing to mention is that the best dedicated macro lenses (tested in a separate shootout published on photomacrography.net if you are interested) come in around the middle of the pack of lenses tested in terms of resolution and sharpness. What this means is that virtually any dedicated macro lens, regardless of price level or manufacturer, can be bested by a $100 (used market price) enlarging lens, and completely trumped by a $300 (used) duplicating lens (75ARD1).

                            If you stick to 75-105mm, the stand does not have to be that high, especially if you get a bellows with integral focus rail like a Vivitar, Pentax, or Nikon. Your existing stand will almost certainly work.

                            Ray
                            Builder of Custom Coin Photography Setups. PM me with your needs or visit http://macrocoins.com

                            Comment

                            • ray_parkhurst
                              Paid Member

                              • Dec 2011
                              • 1855

                              #59
                              Originally posted by Roller
                              Another question Ray. I'm having a bad time focusing through the viewfinder and the D70 does not have live view. So, I'm thinking of getting the Nikon camera control pro 2 software to remedy this. It is my understanding that the software would give me the ability to pre view any shot on my computer screen and focus in using the screen. At least that is what Nikon tells me. Have you had any experience with the pro 2 and is it true that I could perform the task I intend to?
                              I use CCP2 exclusively for my macro shots and it's great for adjusting camera settings and firing the shot, but I don't think it will help the problem you are having. In order to get the benefit of screen focusing, the camera needs to have Live View. Now, I could be wrong and there is some other way the software previews things, but somehow the image has to get to the sensor, and Live View is the only way other than actually taking a photo to get the mirror and shutter out of the way.

                              Ray
                              Builder of Custom Coin Photography Setups. PM me with your needs or visit http://macrocoins.com

                              Comment

                              • ray_parkhurst
                                Paid Member

                                • Dec 2011
                                • 1855

                                #60
                                Originally posted by Amadauss
                                And quoting for kloccwork question:

                                Not trying to steel your thunder Ray because you are the master of this, the pics are fantastic! To Roller and Kloccwerk, taking with my camera attached to the AM scope I have realized is not going to cut it. No matter what I do, and believe me have gotten a great deal of help on other forum sites about how to do this, the pics for the most part do not turn out great. To many factors come into play. Most DLSR's work in conjunction with the lens they are using to take the pictures. When you use the camera body and attach it to a part that really gives no feadback to the camera and just lets it sit on top of the scope, it just does not do it. This is not only my opinion. I am thinking would have better luck going with a USB camera of high pixel rate and using that with the scope.

                                Also using the canon EOS utility similar to the nikon utility, taking pics with my scope and camera together, I found getting them to match up, again what I saw on the computer screen was not the final result after taking the pic in many cases.

                                Using Ray's setup separate on a stand and set up like he has it is the way to have the perfect pic and will work much better with any utility you use to few on screen. Plus the utility allows you to use the mouse to click the trigger on the camera to take the pic so no vibration. You do not need a separate trigger to take the picture. Although with Ray's set up it looks so sturdy, I am sure you have no vibration.
                                No worries Amadauss, answer away!

                                To your point, I have had good luck using Tucsen USB cameras in conjunction with my B&L Monozoom7. Nice thing about these cameras is they have no shutter, so nothing to cause vibration, and thus are perfect for microscope use. But, don't expect very high quality from them, even the expensive ones. Even an entry DSLR will handily beat them long as you can keep vibration in check.

                                I have also had a lot of issues with the Live View not matching final pics on my Nikons as well. It all came down to vibration. Once I tamed the vibrations, I could zoom in 100% on the image I just took and compare with the Live View image and they are a perfect match.

                                Note that Canon cameras have a special shutter functionality called Electronic First Shutter Curtain (EFSC). This eliminates the vibration caused by the shutter motion at the beginning of the image. I am now the proud owner of a T2i and am planning to do a shootout between my D7000 and the T2i, but need to upgrade my OS first. Min system requirements for EOS utility are higher than for CCP2.

                                Ray
                                Builder of Custom Coin Photography Setups. PM me with your needs or visit http://macrocoins.com

                                Comment

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