Counterfeit resource thread

[cranky]

I believe that is the same reverse. A clear photo I'm sure the Dot will show and also the Chip area will show it's been abraded or a attempt to..

[BarryG]

Here is a closer pic of the left ear. I do not believe this is the same reverse because of the faint spot on STATES, and the narrowing lettering.

[mgrear1956]

I just sent a few key date Lincolns in for grading and the 1914-D came back as "counterfeit added D". How can I tell if the D has been added so I don't get duped again? Thanks!

[duck620]

Here's a Walker!

[BarryG]

I just sent a few key date Lincolns in for grading and the 1914-D came back as "counterfeit added D". How can I tell if the D has been added so I don't get duped again? Thanks!

First, has the coin been cleaned? Second, Is it the right mint mark style and position? (Check on this site) Last, use a 30x-40x magnifier to see if there is a seam between the mint mark and the field.

[GrumpyEd]

I just sent a few key date Lincolns in for grading and the 1914-D came back as "counterfeit added D". How can I tell if the D has been added so I don't get duped again? Thanks!

The first thing to check is the D itself, the 14-D has a unique shaped center. There aren't many dies so you could also verify the location matches one of the real locations. Beware of goo or dark stuff around the mintmark that might hide a seam or glue.

MMs can be made by chiseling (sliding metal to form it), formed with glue, glued on, soldered, raised from inside through a tiny hole they make in the rim then close up when they're done. They can add or make some very good looking MMs but most of the time the style is off.

Be leery of TPGs "reason" for not grading. They aren't slabbing it so once they decide they won't slab they give a simple answer. Sometimes they're wrong. The reason I dislike the most is "can't verify authenticity" because it doesn't mean it's not real, it might mean they can't be sure. I think there may be some legal issues, like if they say "it is counterfeit" they might be supposed to send it to the secret service, that would anger a customer not to get their coin back especially if it's gold but fake (like fake US gold coins from Lebanon that are gold) so in those cases they may say "can't verify" so that might mean "we don't know" or "we know it's fake and won't grade it but don't want to say the word counterfeit and want to return it to you". I'm not sure about those rules, if that's true or based on being a current coin or an urban myth but I've never had a coin returned as "counterfeit" but some as "can't verify authenticity". I know people that have resubmitted coins like that to the same TPG or another and eventually got a grade.

[willbrooks]

I just sent a few key date Lincolns in for grading and the 1914-D came back as "counterfeit added D". How can I tell if the D has been added so I don't get duped again? Thanks!

For starters, you can compare yours to one of the known mint mark positions as illustrated below. Hope that helps.

[Edthelorax]

I am having a really tough time dealing with Ebay's total disregard for the Collectible Coin Protection Act which is the amendment to the Hobby Protection Act.

Collectible Coin Protection Act - Amends the Hobby Protection Act to make it a violation of such Act for a person to provide substantial assistance or support to any manufacturer, importer, or seller if that person knows or should have known that such manufacturer, importer, or seller has engaged in any act or practice that violates requirements for plainly identifying imitation political items or imitation coins and other numismatic items.

I belong to another forum where counterfeits on Ebay get reported. I found a seller of fake 1909-S VDB's. When I went to report them, I found that they were first reported in April, 2018 and have had dozens of listings removed by Ebay since. Their listings were removed this morning and by 9AM they had more counterfeits listed.

Ebay is without a doubt "providing substantial assistance to a seller" and Ebay definitely knows the seller has counterfeit coins.

The FTC is supposed to enforce the law, but does nothing.

The majority of collectors and dealers I encounter online seem to justify their inaction because it doesn't effect them because they know how to detect fakes or they don't shop on Ebay for that reason. I believe it doesn't effect me directly but I care about the hobby and the new collectors that fakes does effect.

Counterfeits was the primary reason I started joining online coin forums. The response to my attempts at discussion have been disappointing to say the least.

Today there were 10 sellers reported by our forum, 8 of which were repeat offenders. It isn't a large group, it is private and all reports must have proof.

I am getting fed up doing a lot of work for basically nothing. It takes a very long time to get these seller's accounts disabled, when they finally are, the seller just opens another.

No wonder so many others just don't care any more, it is like trying to stop a river with a shovel.

I will continue to complain until I get help forcing Ebay to change or until I die. (Hopefully not from the stress of it)

I have a few counterfeits and a lot of pictures from Ebay.

The only counterfeit coin I like is my Henning nickle.

I don;t think I'll ever part with this one, my attempt at faking it from 40+ years ago......

14D.jpg

[willbrooks]

I think it is great that you are fighting the good fight. I used to also, but sadly, I am now in the group of those you described that have given up. Without the proper support from the auction sites, it is a hopeless battle. All we can do is what we already are: educate others to not fall victim to the crooks. Thank you for your great post!

[Edthelorax]

I think i am fighting the wrong battle. Instead of fighting to get posts removed, I should be fighting more to get ebay to change their policy. I've heard all the excuses why that isn't or shouldn't happen, but they are wrong!

Maybe if I complain enough, someone will want me to stop badly enough that they do something.

I don't know how, but I am going to help force change.

I guess that's what Lorax do.

[mustbebob]

I admire your tenacity and goals. A lot of us have been fighting this fight for a very long time. It it cynical to think otherwise as counterfeits are as old as coins themselves. You really may not have any idea of how many thousands of auctions have been pulled because of actions by others. You are not fighting it alone, but you are seeing what a lot of us have already seen. You need to keep fighting, but thinking that you can affect change just by being a pain is not going to work. Until someone is actually prosecuted under the Collectible Coin Protection Act, then it is a worthless piece of paper.

On a side note, I am perplexed by your willingness to show a coin you admitted altering (even if it was 40 years ago). I don't know you, but I do not think it is such a good idea to fight the very thing you admit doing years ago. Some things are better left unsaid if you know what I mean.

[Edthelorax]

I do understand how much work the devoted put into counterfeit abatement. I am very grateful for the knowledge they share. I do not do as much as I wish I could, or a tenth of what some do. I'm lucky if I get more than 5 hrs a week focused on counterfeits.

I could have worded my post better about complaining accomplishing anything. I know there has been discussion and problem solving efforts for a very long time. I'm sure some of the de facto leaders of numismatics are responsible for getting the CCPA passed. I know if ebay were totally shut down, the problem would still persist.

What I was trying to convey is that with similar efforts, Ebay, Amazon, Etsy, Paypal and other sites can be convinced to tighten the enforcement of the CCPA. Truthfully, it would be beneficial for them to send a stronger signal that they are trying to protect the customer from fraud.

I am hoping to start and promote more conversations like this one, where those that have the experience and passion can share that knowledge. Education is the true solution. Many don't have the opportunity to learn because they haven't been exposed to the severity of the problem. The more it is talked about openly the more people will want to get involved. Social media is a very powerful tool and can cause a avalanche of change. I promise that if Ebay were to receive a million complaints a day, they would enforce their policy which they already have in place.

Laws or the enforcement of them doesn't stop crime, but when done properly, it sure lessens the occurrence.

You are probably right about my openness over the 1944-D. I was 9 years old and I did know better. I was fortunate to have guidance and was shown that changing my ways was the right thing, not only for everyone that I would have potentially deceived, but for myself. People can change, I would rather help others decide that they want to change, than force them to.

The truth is I did something regrettable. I do not regret being truthful. I do not fear the truth. But I do appreciate and respect your advice. Sometimes you just have to listen to (and trust) those who care and are trying to help you make a change.

Thank You for that,
Ed

[GrumpyEd]

I think it's up to each collector to learn a lot before they buy. It's sad but true. I wish it could be different but that is reality.
Many fakes exist and now with so much trade they can be made and imported from places where the laws don't care, it's only another export and exports are good for them so good fakes can be mass produced holder and all.

If they make fake US currency then the US would put effort to stop it. Collector coins are different, the gov can say it's illegal and make the CCPA but they don't have a good reason to put much effort into stopping it. Making fake $100 bills is different than 1914-D cents so it makes sense they won't put much effort into it. If they made fake Nike shoes then that company has a reason to fight it. Collector coins are different, there is no company to protect it like Nike would protect their brand or Microsoft would protect their software.

The places like ebay are not experts in detecting fakes, it would be very hard for them to be effective, the fakes can be good, they can be in holders. It would be great if they could catch them but I don't think it's likely. In the end, they are a website that lets people buy/sell and we need to be careful, look at feedbacks and know what we are buying.

In the end it's up to buyers and the TPGs to help. I think all TPGs should have online photos of every coin they holder so buyers can look it up and know it's really the same coin they are buying. Without that you can't be sure the coin matches the holder number. That increases the value of TPGs, the value of them is a grade you can trust and a way to tell that the coin you are buying is the one they graded and it's worth paying for that.

[Petespockets55]

....... Education is the true solution.........

Education truly ends up being the key.

I would say all collectors can't stand the sellers skirting the "system" who knowingly sell fakes. They hide behind terms like "Let the buyer beware!".
Unfortunately some don't/won't learn the advantages of honesty. Money can cause people to do strange things.

Ultimately the collector is the one that must protect themselves, through knowledge, experience, more knowledge, other collectors and even more knowledge.

Sort of like dealing with rattlesnakes when walking through the woods. Know the environment as well as what to look out for to avoid getting bitten. We can only do so much to control the snakes actions.

[mustbebob]

The truth is I did something regrettable. I do not regret being truthful. I do not fear the truth.

Thanks for explaining things. I love the fact that you were truthful and also that you learned something from that.

Please rest assured that there are many people working the counterfeit issues. There have been some great comments here and the technical improvements in producing these counterfeits make them harder to detect. Keep doing what you are doing. Maybe you have stirred something in others that will make them try to do more. I know I will try to do more than I already do. Ebay, Paypal and other places really hate hearing from me so often about things like auction violations and counterfeits. I don't mind though. Thanks for you post!