Information request - Class 9 Doubled Dies - Definition

[VAB2013]

I have looked for information on our forum, and on the internet, to have a better understanding of Class 9 Doubled Dies and I am still confused. Please help! Thank you!

[makecents]

I'm sure you have already looked at this but here it is anyway. Not very incouraging though when Mr. Wexler says "this is the class used when the doubled dies are simply unexplained, they defy logic and common sense". You would think I would be all over this!! (http://www.error-ref.com/doubled-dies/)

[VAB2013]

Thank you Jon! Yeah, you should be all over this subject! I've been trying to research and just keep hitting dead ends. Some of the information on different websites pretty much stops at Class 8 and the information I have been able to find about Class 9 DD's doesn't go into a lot of detail. I found one site that compares the Class 9 to be similar in characteristics to a Class 4, which I kinda get that - but - something still doesn't seem right. Then to further confuse matters for me - I think I am seeing doubling on Shield cents that is not going in the same cardinal direction.

[willbrooks]

Good topic. I was just thinking about this this morning. I have to respect what Wexler is saying. The whole "snaps later into the 'correct' position" theory seems to me to have problems. This morning I was looking at a host of BU 2009 EC 2009 DDR-051. (anyone need one?) Anyway, this doubled die has a ridiculously enormous spread to the NE. So far, I simply cannot reconcile this type of occurrence with that theory.

[jfines69]

On CCs listings for Class 9 they are all, from what Bob has told me, are to differentiate between the double squeeze method for the ONE CENT and the single squeeze method... Bob may be able to help us out and correct me if I am wrong on what he told me... Not that being wrong ever happens Like Will said some of this doubling does not make sense to have a die just jump into place but that is above my pay grade!!!

Just found some info on VV about the double squeeze to single squeeze dates - Denver began the single squeeze foe cents thru quarters in 1996 and Philly in 1997... I always thought it was 1998???

[VAB2013]

Thank you Will! I had to go look at VV 2009 1c EC DDR-051 and you are right - those logs have a huge NE spread. Well, now I'm even more confused than when I started!

[willbrooks]

Thank you Will! I had to go look at VV 2009 1c EC DDR-051 and you are right - those logs have a huge NE spread. Well, now I'm even more confused than when I started!

Don't feel bad. Our hobby's attributors don't have it worked out yet either. I don't know if I'll be able to make any head-way into it or not, but I will start ruminating about it. But first priority right now is to finish Mike's updates on error-ref, and that's going to eat up a lot of time.

[willbrooks]

Just found some info on VV about the double squeeze to single squeeze dates - Denver began the single squeeze foe cents thru quarters in 1996 and Philly in 1997... I always thought it was 1998???

Side note: the entry in that link above about the "doubled" 1974S mint mark punch will be changed to coincide with my new findings as soon as the article is published.

[VAB2013]

Okay Will... thank you for the update! Geez... you are swamped right now so I understand that some things have to simmer on the back burner!

[GrumpyEd]

At the really really simple guy level it's sort of like a single squeeze version of a class 6.
I know it makes no sense from a mechanical point of view since class 6 maybe are truly doubled dies where the die shape changed between hubbings (maybe for thermal reasons?) or something. The class 9 is more like it wiggled in one squeeze.
Other than that the effect is sort of similar but more one directional (for most 9s).

Maybe 9s sort of got lumped in with 6s until the experts decided to differentiate since they are from a different cause.

[willbrooks]

At the really really simple guy level it's sort of like a single squeeze version of a class 6.
I know it makes no sense from a mechanical point of view since class 6 maybe are truly doubled dies where the die shape changed between hubbings (maybe for thermal reasons?) or something. The class 9 is more like it wiggled in one squeeze.
Other than that the effect is sort of similar but more one directional (for most 9s).

Maybe 9s sort of got lumped in with 6s until the experts decided to differentiate since they are from a different cause.

I would compare the ones like I mentioned above to be like a class 4, like the eyelids. Even though it is a "single squeeze," I wonder if they didn't sometimes start, and then stop and realign, and then actually do the "single squeeze." This would explain at least some of what we see. Perhaps we are seeing 2 completely different "classes" of single squeeze doubled dies. I think that might work for me to explain it all.

[VAB2013]

I would compare the ones like I mentioned above to be like a class 4, like the eyelids. Even though it is a "single squeeze," I wonder if they didn't sometimes start, and then stop and realign, and then actually do the "single squeeze." This would explain at least some of what we see. Perhaps we are seeing 2 completely different "classes" of single squeeze doubled dies. I think that might work for me to explain it all.

I think you are onto something Will - the scenario you just described "2 completely different classes of single squeeze doubled dies" makes more sense with doubled columns as well.

Added: Now for the other thing that is bugging me. I found this 2019P minor DDO (Post #22) and it seems like the direction of the doubling on the date is different from the doubling on Liberty. If this is correct, or even possible... it makes me wonder if there are some more listed similar to this and I just haven't noticed it before.

[mustbebob]

Class 9s started when coppercoins.com decided to use it as a result of a single squeeze hubbing. These doubled dies could not be explained by any of the other 8 classes used at the time. When we approached Wiles and Wexler about it, they didn't agree. Wiles decided the doubling was a combination class 4 plus 8 which didn't make sense because it was a single hubbing...not multiple. Over time, we found that the doubling was the result of 'snap back' or when the hubbing moved or snapped into place during the single hubbing process The conical shape of the die may have contributed to this. We also found out from the Mint, that some doubling came about as a result of the technician stopping the hubbing, then restarting it. This is not normal protocol. In these cases, things like Class 4 (offset) or Class 8 (tilted) could reasonably be used to explain the doubling. Some of the recent strong doubled dies can only be explained because the hubbing was stopped and restarted. I personally see no way it came about from a single hubbing.
In any case, coppercoins would use it when we could not use any of the other classes to explain the doubling.

[VAB2013]

Class 9s started when coppercoins.com decided to use it as a result of a single squeeze hubbing. These doubled dies could not be explained by any of the other 8 classes used at the time. When we approached Wiles and Wexler about it, they didn't agree. Wiles decided the doubling was a combination class 4 plus 8 which didn't make sense because it was a single hubbing...not multiple. Over time, we found that the doubling was the result of 'snap back' or when the hubbing moved or snapped into place during the single hubbing process The conical shape of the die may have contributed to this. We also found out from the Mint, that some doubling came about as a result of the technician stopping the hubbing, then restarting it. This is not normal protocol. In these cases, things like Class 4 (offset) or Class 8 (tilted) could reasonably be used to explain the doubling. Some of the recent strong doubled dies can only be explained because the hubbing was stopped and restarted. I personally see no way it came about from a single hubbing.
In any case, coppercoins would use it when we could not use any of the other classes to explain the doubling.

Thank you Bob for this explanation! I don't know if this means anything... but from 1959 through 1981 there were very few Class 4 Doubled Dies. I took some notes using Coppercoins advanced search. Actually from 1969 through 1981 there were "No" Class 4 DD's. The Class 4 DD's prior to 1969 were very few, like maybe a dozen or so... and they are all extra eyelids and Bar L's. Then in 1982 the major 1DR-001 SD Zinc Class 4 showed up, in 1983 the major 1DR-001 and in 1984 the major 1DO-001 (all Class 4 and the only Class 4 for those years). Wexler and Variety Vista may have some listings to contradict what my findings were for these years, Coppercoins is just so much easier to study with the advanced search. Then in 1985 nothing going on... in 1986 it looks like that is when the first DDR column (Class 4) showed up and those started trickling in in small numbers... then in larger and larger numbers in some years as Class 4. My study goes on further than this - but one thing I noticed is that in 1993 is when the Class 9's started showing up. I wish I was smart enough to figure out where my mind is trying to take me... I just can't help but wonder if whatever happened to cause those major class 4's has something to do with the unexplained nature of Class 9's.

[mustbebob]

Class 4's are just plain more scarce than other types of doubling. Eyelid doubling was the main result of offset hub doubling in the earlier years. It seems that the key-ways used to align the hubs for subsequent hubbings was more prone to rotational errors than offset errors. Class 7 doubled dies are also very scarce. I can't place any rational reason to any of it.