Information request - Class 9 Doubled Dies - Definition

[jfines69]

Side note: the entry in that link above about the "doubled" 1974S mint mark punch will be changed to coincide with my new findings as soon as the article is published.

Cool... Thanks for the info!!!

[VAB2013]

Class 4's are just plain more scarce than other types of doubling. Eyelid doubling was the main result of offset hub doubling in the earlier years. It seems that the key-ways used to align the hubs for subsequent hubbings was more prone to rotational errors than offset errors. Class 7 doubled dies are also very scarce. I can't place any rational reason to any of it.

Thank you Bob! Now I don't feel so bad about my mind spinning around in circles

[jfines69]

Here are a couple more that do not make sense to me for a single squeeze with a jump in the dies... I would think the amount of jump would have gotten the attention of the worker doing the squeeze??? These are from Copper Coins - 1998P-1dr-009 - 1999D-1dr-007 - 2000D-1dr-001 - 2001D-1dr-007 and there are more like those!!!

[willbrooks]

Thank you Bob! Now I don't feel so bad about my mind spinning around in circles

You have advanced to the point where you question the status quo. This is how advancements are made. In this case, the pundits flat out say that there isn't a full understanding. We will try to expand the knowledge we have been given. The pros have done so much work and shared so much knowledge. To have to start over would be horrible. Just like any other science, we are so lucky to have the former knowledge. It is our job as pupils to advance what we were taught. Our teachers would ultimately be disappointed if their work went stagnant. We must give life to their legacies. The 2nd best thing Newton said was, "If I have seen farther, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants. " Here is a topic that needs advancement. It is our duty to advance it. (/dismount soapbox)

[Rowdyricster]

You have advanced to the point where you question the status quo. This is how advancements are made. In this case, the pundits flat out say that there isn't a full understanding. We will try to expand the knowledge we have been given. The pros have done so much work and shared so much knowledge. To have to start over would be horrible. Just like any other science, we are so lucky to have the former knowledge. It is our job as pupils to advance what we were taught. Our teachers would ultimately be disappointed if their work went stagnant. We must give life to their legacies. The 2nd best thing Newton said was, "If I have seen farther, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants. " Here is a topic that needs advancement. It is our duty to advance it. (/dismount soapbox)

Very well said, Will. I'm pretty sure that there is no area of human study where it can be said, "this settled, the book is closed". Knowledge is ongoing. One builds on anothers work, but for the same purpose...to have better understanding. Hopefully one day I will be able to contribute to such advancements ...in some small way.

I should add that Viv absolutely amazes me. I admire her grasp of the minting process and her attribution skills. Thanks, Viv, for all the help you give to all of us.

[VAB2013]

Thank you so much Will and Rowdy! I saw your comments last night and it made me feel so proud and I'm sure I probably blushed - that I didn't know what to say... except thank you! We all learn so much from each other and all of the experts that we are so graced to have their presence here on the forum! Will and Bob have had a tremendous impact on my learning curve and have always helped me fix the broken spokes in my wheel - I can't thank them enough!

[VAB2013]

The 2nd best thing Newton said was, "If I have seen farther, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants."

ummm... Will.... if you don't mind for me to stand on your shoulders for a little while (come on... LOL - I'm not that heavy!) I've been trying to research the annealing process and finding tid bits of info here and there. I find it interesting that not only is the die annealed before it can be hubbed, but also the copper alloy blanks were annealed. I wish I could see how the copper blanks were heated before the strike... "hurry up before this thing cools off"... hummm So, when the Mint changed to copper plated zinc and the blanks were no longer annealed, that had to be a huge time saver! Also, I wonder if the switch over to copper plated zinc had something to do with some of the doubling taking on somewhat different characteristics?

[mustbebob]

Here are a couple more that do not make sense to me for a single squeeze with a jump in the dies... I would think the amount of jump would have gotten the attention of the worker doing the squeeze??? These are from Copper Coins - 1998P-1dr-009 - 1999D-1dr-007 - 2000D-1dr-001 - 2001D-1dr-007 and there are more like those!!!

Jim, I think these, and others like them can easily be linked to the starting, stopping and then restarting of the hubbing process. Something must have happened that made the technicians stop the process in the first place. I am guessing that a loose die or hub was identified during the initial stages of the hubbing. The process was stopped, the parts were tightened (which most likely led to the rotation you see), and then restarted.

I wish I could see how the copper blanks were heated before the strike..

I believe the Mint had 10,000 workers in the basement with a pair of tweezers and a Bic lighter


Actually Viv, I can probably help you understand this process better. I am sure Jim's work with metals can help too. I will work up something pretty soon...OK?

[VAB2013]

I believe the Mint had 10,000 workers in the basement with a pair of tweezers and a Bic lighter


Actually Viv, I can probably help you understand this process better. I am sure Jim's work with metals can help too. I will work up something pretty soon...OK?

that is too funny Bob! Yay! Thank you so much for preparing information to help us understand this process! Very much looking forward to it!

[willbrooks]

The 2nd best thing Newton said was....

I can't believe nobody bit on this.

[VAB2013]

I can't believe nobody bit on this.

Nope, we all missed it Will! What was the first best thing that Newton said?

Added: was it something like "I can only shine my flash light as far as you can see it, then it's up to you to get some fresh batteries"?

[willbrooks]

Nope, we all missed it Will! What was the first best thing that Newton said?

Oh, so glad you asked!

The best thing Sir Isaac Newton said was:
"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

[VAB2013]

Oh, so glad you asked!

The best thing Sir Isaac Newton said was:
"I do not know what I may appear to the world, but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me."

What a simple, but powerful statement coming from one of the foremost scientific intellects of all time!

[willbrooks]

I believe the Mint had 10,000 workers in the basement with a pair of tweezers and a Bic lighter


Actually Viv, I can probably help you understand this process better. I am sure Jim's work with metals can help too. I will work up something pretty soon...OK?

ummm... Will.... if you don't mind for me to stand on your shoulders for a little while (come on... LOL - I'm not that heavy!) I've been trying to research the annealing process and finding tid bits of info here and there. I find it interesting that not only is the die annealed before it can be hubbed, but also the copper alloy blanks were annealed. I wish I could see how the copper blanks were heated before the strike... "hurry up before this thing cools off"... hummm So, when the Mint changed to copper plated zinc and the blanks were no longer annealed, that had to be a huge time saver! Also, I wonder if the switch over to copper plated zinc had something to do with some of the doubling taking on somewhat different characteristics?

I have never seen the annealing process in person. I will also be looking forward to Bob's tutorial.

[mustbebob]

Here is a great explanation that includes snippets on annealing and their purpose. It is important to also remember that the dies were annealed inbetween hubbings as well as the coin blanks/planchets.

https://www.ngccoin.com/boards/topic/2398-the-minting-process-planchet-preparation/

If after reading this you have specific questions, let me know and I will do my best to address them.