Awesome discovery & research from moving my Lincoln set

[jfines69]

That is what I’m getting at. 1DR-008P & VDDR-020 should be the same die, per the gouge from the upper left of T in LIBERTY. That matte proof DDR, along with VDDR-017, 018, & 019, and my coin in the attached images, all have matching REVERSE markers. Specifically the 2 parallel die scratches b/t the top of IB in PLURIBUS, and the crossing die scratches from each leg of the M in UNUM. Check out my images and the links to Coppercoins & Variety Vista. You can see them fairly easily. VV doesn’t have an image of the C in CENT on any of the 4 non VDB listings, but I would bet you anything all those coins have a NW/SE die gouge in the middle of the C. The CC images of the matte proof does.

Got an idea but need to do some study of the pics on VV and CC of the DDRs you pointed out to tell for sure and then I will get back hopefully today!!!

[Petespockets55]

Cliff, they aren’t raised. They are incuse on the coin...

Jay, thanks for pointing that out. (Another mental glitch on my part.)

On the working hub, not the working die.

On 55-S I look for the "V" formed by four hub scratches, two each from around the E and the T of LIBERTY, that meet in the field to left of shoulder. This is a distinctive pattern that shows up on a bunch of dies, but by MDS they are usually gone. This particular coin is EDS, and they are already showing a little wear.

Thanks Ray. With your description, they stand out.

[jfines69]

I compared CCs 008P VV DDR-017 018 019 and 020... They do have a lot of the same markers as yours especially between and at the top of IB in EPU and of the legs of M in UNUM though with varying degrees of wear... The differences I see is in the DDR itself... Easiest to tell on STA of STATES... On 008 there is a long stub off the top of S and a notch on the top of the A... 017 has a notch on the top of the S and smaller notch on the A... 018 Stub on the S is smaller than 008 and smaller notch on A... 019 has a small stub on S and doesn't appear to have a notch on the A or is really small... 020 appears to have an angle stub on the S and a small notch on the A... That may be the only reason the DDRs are listed separately even though they are from the same die??? Can you post pics of USA for us... That may help a little more!!!

[jay4202472000]

I will work on that as soon as I get a chance Jim. I’m still leaning toward master die markers. It just feels hard to believe they could all be the exact same reverse working die. In that instance, the reverse would have had to start out as a matte proof, then be paired with at least 5 other different business strike obverses.

I get you those images as soon as I get a chance.

[jfines69]

I will work on that as soon as I get a chance Jim. I’m still leaning toward master die markers. It just feels hard to believe they could all be the exact same reverse working die. In that instance, the reverse would have had to start out as a matte proof, then be paired with at least 5 other different business strike obverses.

I get you those images as soon as I get a chance.

Sounds good... Remember that CC shows that only about 180 matte proofs were minted... If that is the case then it is highly possible that business strikes were minted with the same rev die and matched with different obv business dies!!!

[jay4202472000]

Jim, these images may be no help at all. The wood grain look or something makes this coin a terror to photograph for some reason. The S on my coin took a small hit, so the end is deformed a tad. The A does have a notch in the center, but I had to tilt the coin a fair amount to get it to show well. Also, there is a nice die dot to the left of the A, just below where the crossbar would intersect. I only noticed it while taking these images. I want to look over the listings to see if I see it anywhere.

I also added an image of the doubling at the bottom of IT in UNITED. I couldn’t get it to show originally, and it was the first thing I noticed when I glassed the coin. Hope they help you some.

[jfines69]

To me Your STA and IT look closest to VVs 020... Even with the hit on the S the knub appears to angle back like VVs sample... The notch on your A is real close in location also... I decided to take a look at VVs 09S DDRsYour ... 001 has the exact same markers between the IB as VVs 017 018 019 020 and CCs 008... The doubling on VVs 002 is really different and I did not see any markers that match with the others... Really strange - at least 4 P mints with the same rev dies and 1 S mint!!!

[jay4202472000]

I hadn’t checked the 1909-S listings. That’s pretty crazy. I did check my 1909-S (no VDB) when I was moving my coins. It wasn’t a DDR. This is driving me nuts, but it is very interesting. I have a bag of lightly circulated 1972s that had the master die doubling. If I can find some time I am going to dig them out and see if I can find some matching markers on some coins that I know are from different obverse dies. Just to see if it is possible for markers to make it from master die, through working hub, then on to working dies. I would at least know if it is plausible. The more the markers show up the harder it is for me to believe they are all the exact same reverse die.

It just seems easier for me to believe that a master die transferred some markers to 1 or 2 working hubs (before the markers faded), then on to a few working dies apiece, than it is for me to believe a matte proof die struck some proofs. Then got paired with an obverse and struck a bunch of coins. Then got paired with another obverse and struck a bunch of coins. Then another. Then another. Then was shipped to San Fran and paired with the S/horizontal S and struck some more. But we do know from onecent1909 that not all S/horizontal S coins have the DDR.

Then I go back and think, “If it is master die related, why aren’t there way more floating around?” Not as many as 1972, since 2 different styles of hub was used, but still plenty of them. Then I am back to square one going over all of it in my head again. I guess I am going to have to break down and join CONECA just to read the Errorscope article at some point.

[jay4202472000]

Jim, I figured out another piece. Those markers are on the VDB “deep cut N” only reverse too. Unless I just can’t see the doubling or the shallow N on this listing. The gouge/scratch in the C & the two scratches from the M are visible on this coin, along with the scratches b/t IB: https://www.ebay.com/itm/314618351139

[jfines69]

Jim, I figured out another piece. Those markers are on the VDB “deep cut N” only reverse too. Unless I just can’t see the doubling or the shallow N on this listing. The gouge/scratch in the C & the two scratches from the M are visible on this coin, along with the scratches b/t IB: https://www.ebay.com/itm/314618351139

I believe that is the shallow cut RDV-003... The RDV-004 was hub first and the RDV-003 was hub into the RDV-004... Shallow cut into deep cut... That's why we have the die markers still in place... I think since the abrasions are actually shallow if they were on the masters they would have been covered up during the hubbings... If I remember correctly the masters make the dies to hub the working dies... The the working dies are hubbed??? In this case RDV-004 is hubbed 1st heat treated then RDV-003 was hubbed 2nd leaving the die abrassions... Any previous abrasions unless they were deep would have most likely been covered over by metal flow... RDV-003 may have all the abrasions because it could have been a VDB die at first and had it removed also causing it to become a shallow N???

[jfines69]

I hadn’t checked the 1909-S listings. That’s pretty crazy. I did check my 1909-S (no VDB) when I was moving my coins. It wasn’t a DDR. This is driving me nuts, but it is very interesting. I have a bag of lightly circulated 1972s that had the master die doubling. If I can find some time I am going to dig them out and see if I can find some matching markers on some coins that I know are from different obverse dies. Just to see if it is possible for markers to make it from master die, through working hub, then on to working dies. I would at least know if it is plausible. The more the markers show up the harder it is for me to believe they are all the exact same reverse die.

It just seems easier for me to believe that a master die transferred some markers to 1 or 2 working hubs (before the markers faded), then on to a few working dies apiece, than it is for me to believe a matte proof die struck some proofs. Then got paired with an obverse and struck a bunch of coins. Then got paired with another obverse and struck a bunch of coins. Then another. Then another. Then was shipped to San Fran and paired with the S/horizontal S and struck some more. But we do know from onecent1909 that not all S/horizontal S coins have the DDR.

Then I go back and think, “If it is master die related, why aren’t there way more floating around?” Not as many as 1972, since 2 different styles of hub was used, but still plenty of them. Then I am back to square one going over all of it in my head again. I guess I am going to have to break down and join CONECA just to read the Errorscope article at some point.

It will be interesting to see what comes up with your 72s... If only 180 matte proofs were struck dies could have been transferred to san fran to prevent waste!!!

[WaterSport]

And the matte proof die is a more special die with more detail so it may have been used afterwords because it was in very good shape and perhaps annealed (harden) more because of the extra pressure required to make proofs?? Thus it simply was able to last longer making a bunch more cents than normal??

Bob

[jay4202472000]

Jim, VV has those attributed as deep over shallow. All are attributed that way, even the V.D.B dies. That would be shallow hubbed first, followed by deep cut hubbed over. That coin on eBay I linked is without a doubt RDV-002 (deep cut N with VDB).


Copied and pasted Per VV on VDDR-017: Comments: Reverse is RDV-004 (Deep cut N, no V. D. B.) / RDV-003 (Shallow cut N, no V. D. B).

[jfines69]

Jim, VV has those attributed as deep over shallow. All are attributed that way, even the V.D.B dies. That would be shallow hubbed first, followed by deep cut hubbed over. That coin on eBay I linked is without a doubt RDV-002 (deep cut N with VDB).


Copied and pasted Per VV on VDDR-017: Comments: Reverse is RDV-004 (Deep cut N, no V. D. B.) / RDV-003 (Shallow cut N, no V. D. B).

That's strange - If you look at RDV 003 and 004 the I of UNITED on 003 is real narrow compared to 004... When you look at DDR 017 and the others you can see the narrow I under the overlying I??? I would also think that the ramp in the east notch on the shallow cut N of 003 would be flattened by the field in the east notch of the deep cut N if 003 were hubbed first???

[jay4202472000]

On the hub, the deep cut notch inside the N would be just that, a notch or void, not a piece of raised field like on a die. The hub itself should look exactly like the finished coin… or am I thinking about this wrong? There should just be open space there, with nothing to wipe out the ramp inside the shallow cut N. Similar to why the hub scratches on the 55-S appear to be incuse on the coin. They would be scratched into the hub, raised on the die, then stuck into the coin.

It looks like to me that regardless of which impression was first, the shallow cut ramp would remain on the coins struck.

P.S Thank you all for discussing this with me. I’m loving it!